Defending against being dispelled.

[Calodan]

What you are not being told though is that if you are on the proper CR for your level you will be getting <12 XP per kill........I am not riding that snail train. Would take months to get a level.

Also I think that they need to take a better look at the dispel mobs. They have not been reduced enough. There are many places that still spawn many magic users with breach and dispel and they spawn often 2 at a time. We all know the RIG in this game is fubar. So there is only one choice we either get tons of dispel or no dispel hardly ever. It is like rolling 1s during a session on this game. Some days you can hit everything and are rolling 20s then the next day you only roll 1s. There is no random about it. It is either your friend or your enemy.

[chad878262]

What you are not being told though is that if you are on the proper CR for your level you will be getting <12 XP per kill........I am not riding that snail train. Would take months to get a level.

Also I think that they need to take a better look at the dispel mobs. They have not been reduced enough. There are many places that still spawn many magic users with breach and dispel and they spawn often 2 at a time. We all know the RIG in this game is fubar. So there is only one choice we either get tons of dispel or no dispel hardly ever. It is like rolling 1s during a session on this game. Some days you can hit everything and are rolling 20s then the next day you only roll 1s. There is no random about it. It is either your friend or your enemy.

It would be helpful if in the bug or suggestion forum you could create a post that specifies the actual areas where multiple casters with dispel/breach are spawning. Tfunke went through area by area so I don't think it's fair to ask him to do so again, but if he can be given a list of those area's where multiples are spawning or dispel/breach mobs are spawning too often we can certainly put it on the list to take a look at. Now that you mentioned it I had quite an issue the other day with to Frost Giant Mystics and about 1/2 a dozen Frost Giant warriors outside of their keep... It was not an enjoyable experience.

edit: I don't necessarily agree about the 12 XP for your CR. I think the area's are fairly balanced for gaining XP until you hit epic/21. There are multiple areas where two or three spells/scrolls/potions can afford hours of grinding without worrying over a single dispel. I think it's mostly easy to hit 35-40 XP per mob before epics even with a sub-optimal build simply by purchasing some mage armor, barkskin/spiderskin and shield scrolls...Throw in heroism and some form of fire protection and basically you can reach ~13 pretty quick with little to no risk throughout. By then you are either finding a group for Xvarts or capable of soloing a few other area's with minimal risk. Now, if we are talking about the PB's it get's even easier with XP for mobs ranging between 45-55 since they can go to several area's above their CR and survive.

[Aelcar]

What tactics do you use to avoid being dispelled?

Counterspelling is an option only if you are a Sorcerer and dispel mobs come in limited numbers throughout the session, or in case of boss battles. In any other case, it's going to be terrible for obvious reasons...

1) You can have a CL high enough to put you above the area mobs' dispel range
2) You can limit the use (or, at least, the reliance) of buffs on the breach list
3) You can break line of sight right before the 3rd second of dispel casting time is over: this will result in the caster losing the spell, and the spell losing the target (you). It can be done with HiPS, using the environment (you need high movement speed or port skills like Ki Step for this. FSs and Clerics with Battletide, Arcanes with Haste/Expeditious Retreat, Warlocks with Flee the Scene, Monk types including SF/Monks and Rogue/Monks....), a wand of invisibility or Quicken Spell/SLA/Scars of such spells breaking LoS.
4) You can use buffs properly, instead of playing like a Christmas Tree all the time: most often, only a few buffs are really critical, while the rest can be spared with good gameplay. This makes it possible to rebuff several times without excessive problems during the same farming session
5) You can avoid dispel-heavy areas when soloing
6) You can build characters needing few to no buffs at all

As usual, the best counters are knowledge, practice and understanding your character limits as well as its strengths.

[Touri]

What tactics do you use to avoid being dispelled?

If you are close enough, you can hit the enemy and try to break his spell. Most of the enemies have high concentration, so you need to deal a lot of damage. (>= 50 hp dmg)

For caster without concentration a simple range attack with low damage can help to break their spellcasting.

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Concentration

Check: If a character takes damage while casting a spell or using a spell-like ability, they must make a concentration check versus a DC of ten plus the amount of damage dealt plus the level of the spell (metamagic does not count) being cast in order not to get distracted and suffer spell failure. All spells cast while entangled or in defensive casting mode must pass a concentration check of DC 15 on cantrips, DC 16 on lvl1 spells etc up to a DC of 24 on lvl9 spells. A character may also take a concentration check to avoid the effects of the taunt skill.

[Calodan]

Here is a great example of there is no defense.

Go up to the fields of the dead buff Kory before entering. I enter and boom skeleton mage casts dispel.......Lose bless weapon and True Sight (this one is CL30 should not be dispelled). Okay fair enough I keep going and two more skeleton mages pop. Each throws a dispel at me eats my greater heroism and flame weapon this time. Getting a bit peeved now. Decide to rest near Troll claws entrance and then re-buff full wards again. Enter Vault of the Dead and boom Mogre dispels me. Bye bye true sight and bless weapon again. Re-wards the bless weapon. Gets into first treasure chest room and boom Mogre again.......(getting how this is going?) *sighs* Re-ward. Get most of the way through at this point to the final bridge to get to level 2 and get hit with another Mogre dispel......*grinds teeth* Goes to level 2 Re-wards. BOOM LICH! *curses silently as lich casts dispel* Goes to the left treasure chest and encounters another lich.....*narrows eyes as dispel is cast again*.....Goes to kill the wraith and wraith casts devour magic........*laughs silently to himself* Makes it to level 3 heads left to fight cryptkeeper first. Crypt keeper goes invis. (Remember lost true sight and should not have....)Cryptkeep casts dispel. Then casts Mords. Then goes invis and casts gate to summon devil who promptly casts greater dispel.......*cries silently knowing the end is nigh and watches it happen*

I lost count at this point and raised myself from the fugue and logged off. I just can not see how this is considered a fixed issue for the FOD and VOD area. I am guessing the area before had 30 dispels instead of just 10? I did not even get to killing the mini boss before the dracolich either and he casts yet another mordenkainens and g.dispel if he don't get em all with the mords....

[chad878262]

It's not considered fixed in the sense that true sight and several other spells are flagged as needing addressed (ie. get dispelled at CL30 by Greater Dispel when they shouldn't). However, what you are experiencing with scrolls/wands is absolutely considered fixed.

This is not to say I necessarily agree with it, or to assign any sort of advisement that it doesn't deserve another look, but consider this. Even if we were to go the route of PnP and reduce the max CL for G. Dispel to +15 (essentially lowering the minimum required CL to 25 from 30) this would have very little impact on UMD users. Wand CL is set at what it is, so Kory (being a Favored Soul) has many wards that will be at his CL, but anything like bless weapon that he uses a wand for will be at the wand CL and thus fairly easy to dispel. This is how it is supposed to work.

Now, if the concern is the number of spawns as opposed to the mechanic itself that is something we can take another look at and poke tfunke or another area builder on. But I wouldn't want to do so without adequate details (i.e. is VoD balanced for a party run of 2-4 PC's or is it nearly impossible to make it through?) Solo play is not generally what we balance to, so I think it is important to consider if all those dispels would have as big an impact if with a group, especially when you consider that (aside from the issue with wards that should not be dispellable outside mords/breach) many of the wards from wands and such wouldn't really be needed if you had another player or two with you to act in roles such as tank/damage dealer/crowd control.

[Garn Greymoon]

Here is a great example of there is no defense.

Go up to the fields of the dead buff Kory before entering. I enter and boom skeleton mage casts dispel.......Lose bless weapon and True Sight (this one is CL30 should not be dispelled). Okay fair enough I keep going and two more skeleton mages pop. Each throws a dispel at me eats my greater heroism and flame weapon this time. Getting a bit peeved now. Decide to rest near Troll claws entrance and then re-buff full wards again. Enter Vault of the Dead and boom Mogre dispels me. Bye bye true sight and bless weapon again. Re-wards the bless weapon. Gets into first treasure chest room and boom Mogre again.......(getting how this is going?) *sighs* Re-ward. Get most of the way through at this point to the final bridge to get to level 2 and get hit with another Mogre dispel......*grinds teeth* Goes to level 2 Re-wards. BOOM LICH! *curses silently as lich casts dispel* Goes to the left treasure chest and encounters another lich.....*narrows eyes as dispel is cast again*.....Goes to kill the wraith and wraith casts devour magic........*laughs silently to himself* Makes it to level 3 heads left to fight cryptkeeper first. Crypt keeper goes invis. (Remember lost true sight and should not have....)Cryptkeep casts dispel. Then casts Mords. Then goes invis and casts gate to summon devil who promptly casts greater dispel.......*cries silently knowing the end is nigh and watches it happen*

I lost count at this point and raised myself from the fugue and logged off. I just can not see how this is considered a fixed issue for the FOD and VOD area. I am guessing the area before had 30 dispels instead of just 10? I did not even get to killing the mini boss before the dracolich either and he casts yet another mordenkainens and g.dispel if he don't get em all with the mords....

This has been my experience except in the 10-20 range in different places as pure divine casters. You go from being a capable adventurer to toilet paper. I think the dispels need to be a little (like 50%) less frequent!

[OXHawkXO]

What about items with Spell Resistance? Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are spell resistant. Are there not any spells that can at least buy you some time like Mass Spell Resistance, Spell Mental or Greater Spell Mental?

[chad878262]

Dispel and breach are not effected by mantle, nor spell resistance.

[Eclypticon]

What tactics do you use to avoid being dispelled?

Counterspelling is an option only if you are a Sorcerer and dispel mobs come in limited numbers throughout the session, or in case of boss battles. In any other case, it's going to be terrible for obvious reasons...

1) You can have a CL high enough to put you above the area mobs' dispel range
2) You can limit the use (or, at least, the reliance) of buffs on the breach list
3) You can break line of sight right before the 3rd second of dispel casting time is over: this will result in the caster losing the spell, and the spell losing the target (you). It can be done with HiPS, using the environment (you need high movement speed or port skills like Ki Step for this. FSs and Clerics with Battletide, Arcanes with Haste/Expeditious Retreat, Warlocks with Flee the Scene, Monk types including SF/Monks and Rogue/Monks....), a wand of invisibility or Quicken Spell/SLA/Scars of such spells breaking LoS.
4) You can use buffs properly, instead of playing like a Christmas Tree all the time: most often, only a few buffs are really critical, while the rest can be spared with good gameplay. This makes it possible to rebuff several times without excessive problems during the same farming session
5) You can avoid dispel-heavy areas when soloing
6) You can build characters needing few to no buffs at all

As usual, the best counters are knowledge, practice and understanding your character limits as well as its strengths.

This is pretty solid advice. Thanks for posting.

Part of the problem is that the engine can cheat and adjust the dice on the fly. The AI itself needs to be customized to work fairly with dispel (something which may or may not be possible). If there is a 5% chance of you being dispelled on paper, you should treat it more like 10% IG. It strikes me as similar to the way the AI generates extra non existent critical hits by way of weighted dice do to our difficulty settings. OBE felt that the D&D system was too easy and decided to fix it for us. If mobs can continually keep casting with NWN2 dice, I assume the chance of being dispelled slightly increases rather than stays the same each time. Since the fix has gone in, I have seen the AI do things I have never seen happen before while not in testing.

Dispel mobs possibly could be randomly assigned dispel once they spawn or maybe randomly remove the dispel instances from their sheet? My point is that if we cannot fix the AI, some innovative adjustments should be made so we can control the variance in these mobs. Allowing 2-3 castings per dispel when they spawn at a rate of 2 on up is not good form since we assume the AI will make it through whenever it can.

My advice is the advice I follow. Do not use the areas that use dispel unless you are a non caster. Otherwise, make sure you are a higher level than the CR it is (not good for XP). There are some gray tricks you can pull as listed as above. While some are legit ways to game the system, others are a little hairy and at one time where considered cheating by some people, especially, in PvP. You can also keep a summon wand and some non essential buffs available or cheap wands. Approach your mobs while invisible and let them waste their castings on your disposable summons. This requires knowing how many castings are on the mobs first.

My opinion is that we need to make some changes to how the engine handles dispel.