Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

lilani wrote: The feat cost isn't as intensive as it sounds. it costs 6 feats (though 1 is a metamagic feat which all pure casters will take and spell focus is another, which al pure casters should be taking), Additionally, you get 4 free feats from wiz & RW levels, so even with SCP you still have a lot of feats spare to take plenty of metamagic / epic spells (even more int), if you plan properly.

Aside from the fact that Red Wizard locks you out of two spell schools (which is potentially catastrophic, albeit mitigated by the new developments that allow you to actually pick those schools...before, Illusion's loss was almost always a given), the PrC costs two Spell Penetration feats that are quite a waste (the normal one is a bonus feat present on some key Wizard pieces of equipment already, and the Greater one is definitely not needed), while Archmage forces you to get TWO spell focus feats in different schools (which generally you do not want to do) and Skill Focus Spellcraft which is a sheer concession.

The result of this, mixed with AM's hefty requirements, leaves you with a character that ends up having the metamagic and DC feats it needs (Gr. INT included), as well as a key Epic Spell if you like to do so, but absolutely nothing else. You'll end up with some 200ish HP buffed, AC 34-36 at best and rather low saves.

This does not happen when you can use certain PrCs or pick certain feats to minimize the problems. That's what I meant.

Any caster build is vulnerable to breaches & mords but the above is less affected as it's practically immune to the dispel element of mords meaning the only spells that put you at risk are breaches (which all casters are vulnerable too).

You're not immune. When you say "10% chance of dispel" you might be right, but it's a roll per every ward, not a single one. The way you have to buff to even survive with such a frail character, that means every Mord you eat will strip 2-3 buffs at the very least (especially considering how dice are rigged on Hardcore Difficulty), not to mention the Greater Breach effect will eat all your DR and Shadow Shield to begin with. With the low AC and HP you have, Mirror Images and high DR are absolutely vital for you to survive even a pillow fight: however, MI will get eaten very quickly with the first attacks, and DR will be a goner at the first Mord. This can kill you in seconds when mobs rush you and the breach is in flight, as I mentioned in my former post.

For instance, if you try to solo the Graypeaks, the Vault of the Dead or farm the Naga with this build you'll see what I mean.

Obviously gishing is going to make you more survivable to a mords though i don't think AM makes a good class combo for this kind be of build as you'll certainly begin to feel a shortage of feats when you start to look at extra combat feats that will make you moree than a wet lettuce when it comes to melee.

I never meant to suggest building a gish. I agree with the above.

Aelcar wrote:The result of this, mixed with AM's hefty requirements, leaves you with a character that ends up having the metamagic and DC feats it needs (Gr. INT included), as well as a key Epic Spell if you like to do so, but absolutely nothing else. You'll end up with some 200ish HP buffed, AC 34-36 at best and rather low saves.

You're counting feats incorrectly.

Qualifying, and taking SCP, 3 extra int, 1 epic spell & an epic spell focus still leaves you with:

- 1 pre-epic feat
- 3 epic feats
- 2 AM feats (assuming 3 are spent on spellpower)

You can buy quite a lot of survivability, extra epic meta-magic / epic spells or int with all that.

lilani wrote:

Aelcar wrote:The result of this, mixed with AM's hefty requirements, leaves you with a character that ends up having the metamagic and DC feats it needs (Gr. INT included), as well as a key Epic Spell if you like to do so, but absolutely nothing else. You'll end up with some 200ish HP buffed, AC 34-36 at best and rather low saves.

You're counting feats incorrectly.

Qualifying, and taking SCP, 3 extra int, 1 epic spell & an epic spell focus still leaves you with:

- 1 pre-epic feat
- 3 epic feats
- 2 AM feats (assuming 3 are spent on spellpower)

You can buy quite a lot of survivability, extra epic meta-magic / epic spells or int with all that.

Quite frankly, I don't think I am.

The pre-epic feat needs to be a metamagic, and this goes to pair up with Empower that you took to qualify for RW. My guess is you'd take Extend, and thus you'd have the bare minimum to play with on a Wizard.

Moving on, Epic feats need to be Epic Spell Focus and the Epic Spell you mentioned, and then enough Gr. Int to hit at least 30 INT total...which means all your feats.

AM does NOT grant feats, that's incorrect. AM grants High Arcana, and they have nothing to do with static defense.

Thus, you basically are railroaded into:

- Buying Extend Spell pre-epic to have at least basic Metamagic options
- Buying Great INT with the epic feats aside from the Epic Spell Focus and Epic Spell in question
- Getting 2 more High Arcana, which won't buy you any static survivability

End result is...what I said before.

Frankly you are, this was my original statement that i'll refer you back to:

"With a starting 18 int & 3 int feats + AM spell power 3, you'll have approx 41DC on your school of choice and *42 to overcome SR checks"

Given that was my claim, you have 1 non-epic, 3 epic and 2 AM feats left to select - that isn't opinion, that's factual. How you spend those extra feats is up to you.

Edit: To clarify, you achieve the free epic feats by taking the +int / epic spell as your bonus class feats, leaving you with the epic feats to do with as you please.

I don't deny it's a glass cannon (it's a pure caster build after all), but it certainly has the options I stated.

If you have an alternative AM build for the poster perhaps you'd care to contribute it as an alternative?

lilani wrote:Frankly you are, this was my original statement that i'll refer you back to:

"With a starting 18 int & 3 int feats + AM spell power 3, you'll have approx 41DC on your school of choice and *42 to overcome SR checks"

Given that was my claim, you have 1 non-epic, 3 epic and 2 AM feats left to select - that isn't opinion, that's factual. How you spend those extra feats is up to you.

Well, no, it's not factual. As I explained to you, the 2 AM feats are High Arcana. Moving on, this was MY statement:

Mixing Archmage and Red Wizard is a recipe for feat starvation, as a rule: if a fragile, low hp, low saves, no defenses glass cannon Wizard is what you're after (if you have a friend playing Thayan Knight as his main character, for instance), then by all means, go for it.

But keep in mind that a second or two of lag will kill you most of the times, just like an enemy you did not expect, or a dispel you didn't see coming, or a slight mistake in positioning...or a gentle breeze, really.

To which you replied that with those feats you could take,

You can buy quite a lot of survivability

and I explained why I beg to differ. The way you spend the feats is "up to you", but a wizard with only one metamagic (Empower) is terrible, so you basically HAVE to get Extend spell. A DC wizard with less than base INT 30 to 32 is also pretty bad, so you kind of HAVE to pick the discussed feats, which you also (correctly) mentioned. The two High Arcana you are going to get will do nothing for your HP, AC and saves, because that's NOT what High Arcana do.

As I said, try to play this character in the areas I described as example: you'll be pretty much deleted, unless you are very good at playing wizard, in which case you'll be quite inefficient, but retain some level of effectiveness because you play just that well, and you'll be killed only by lag or severe misfortune.

Is this recommendable, mechanically speaking? As one that played 6+ lvl 30 pure caster Wizards (including 2 full AM 10 types) on the server, on the surface and in the UD, no, it is not. God no. No. You'll finish your friends' Raise Dead scrolls every event with more than 5 participants...

Edit: To clarify, you achieve the free epic feats by taking the +int / epic spell as your bonus class feats, leaving you with the epic feats to do with as you please.

Yes, I am aware. I was calculating them. It's just that you keep talking about High Arcana as feats, you still didn't get Extend Spell (one of your "free" feats) and underestimate how much the need for Great INTs ties up your Epic Feats. I didn't even start with the metamagic feats you miss (like Quicken Spell, for instance, which on such a paper mage is a godsend), but we'll have to do without them, no way they can fit.

I don't deny it's a glass cannon (it's a pure caster build after all), but it certainly has the options I stated.

I never said it doesn't. I think you misunderstood me. I just added my point of view to yours, not invalidated your claims. In fact, I never said it has low DC, problems with SR, or that it is bad: I just said I wouldn't recommend it, and why. In detail.

If you have an alternative AM build for the poster perhaps you'd care to contribute it as an alternative?

Glad you asked.

A Wiz20/AM10 is what I would recommend given the OP doesn't want many of the available PrCs. I would pick up Extend, Empower and Quicken Spell at least, CE and ICE, get only Spell Power I and II then Arcane Fire, Mastery of Elements and either Shaping or SLA: Premonition (your choice, OP). I would pick Greater Ruin as epic spell (since it looks like he doesn't want to be evil), and specialize in Evocation (especially if you take MoS as Arcana). I would bring INT to 32 base, if possible, and either use Fox's Cunning or a +4 INT item if available.

This character would use SLA and Quicken Spell (especially Mirror Images and Expeditious Retreat) to deal with the problems I mentioned above. It would also have +6 AC flat with respect to your version. The SR of basically everything on the server would be auto-bypassed, and the DCs would be basically the same as the RW version (DC 40 instead of 41. Amply sufficient for the task.).

It would also retain an additional School of magic with respect to the RW, and lose a 9th Circle Spell less due to the Arcanas I am picking.

The 6 CL is the same as taking 4x +int feats, so while it looks like the build has a feat shortage, it has more options with epic feats depending just how much of a glass cannon you want to be.

Let's compare like for like the builds - the RW build has higher DC's but has 1 less spell school.

RW build:
41 DC on chosen school
Metamagic: Extend, Empower, Quicken
CL 38 - Mords dispel element will affect 10% from a CL30 caster
Loses 1 extra spell school & 9th level slot
2 epic feats free - (this could match the W20 build with ICE but could also take Auto Quicken 2, or +2int etc)
Must be part of the Thayan faction

W20 build
39/40DC on chosen school (40DC only if using a +2 int race)
Metamagic: Extend, Empower Quicken
CL 32 - Mords dispel element will affect 40% from a CL30 caster
Improved Combat Expertise
Can be of any race / alignment.

A question I do have regarding the AM spells / day ability - Can you take (and use) SLA - Premonition if you have excluded divination as a school?

Yes and no. It seems that way in theory, but there are practical differences you are not considering yet. Let's look at it together:

lilani wrote:The 6 CL is the same as taking 4x +int feats, so while it looks like the build has a feat shortage, it has more options with epic feats depending just how much of a glass cannon you want to be.

On one hand, 6 CL give +2 DC just like 4x INT points. On the other, the INT is needed for the extra spells, since AM slot losses will weight heavily on you.

But more importantly, the 6 CL (5/6 of it, making the last 1 irrelevant) will exist ONLY for your RW Specialization School: it's not global, while the INT will raise all your spells' DC as well as your Epic Spell DC (CL does not do this).

I fixed the following to highlight some key aspect that have been misinterpreted:

Let's compare like for like the builds:

RW build:
41 DC on chosen school, 36 DC for the secondary one, 35 DC for the others. Loses two schools (DC 35 + 3 -> Epic Spell Focus + 3 -> RW CL & Specialization)
Metamagic: Extend, Empower, Quicken
CL 38 - Mords dispel element will affect 10% from a CL30 caster CL 33. CL 38 ONLY for RW school of specialization.
Loses 1 extra 9th circle slot
2 epic feats free - (this could match the W20 build with ICE but could also take Auto Quicken 2, or +2int etc) You need the Gr. INT Feats here, as explained above.
Must be part of the Thayan faction
Must be Human (cannot take a +2 INT race)

W20 build
39/40DC on chosen school, 37/38 DC for the secondary one, 36/37 DC for all the others (variables: +0 int race/+2 int race)
Metamagic: Extend, Empower Quicken
CL 32 - Mords dispel element will affect 40% from a CL30 caster (35% or 40% isn't the issue. The auto-breach effects on your 4 main buffs, including all your DR options is. Check the Breach List for reference. Valid for both builds)
Improved Combat Expertise
Can be of any race / alignment.
Can be a generalist (no school losses), or a specialist (loses one school only)

So, basically until you decide which school of specialization you pick as a RW and which ones you give up, we can't clarify the following:

- If you even end up having more DC (you need a serious 9th Circle DC spell, otherwise you won't) for the only school you have a shot at doing so. All the rest will be lower.
- Which kind of attack options and buffs you are going to end up losing, and how they affect your gameplay. The -6 AC remains because fitting ICE in such build is problematic.
- If you have any CL 38 buffs at all, and which ones/how critical they even are.

At this point, you'd be likely better off as a Wiz16/Ro4/RW10 type (less requirements, Evasion, +9 AC from Tumble and ICE, detection skills open, UMD open if you wish to cast spells from cross-classed scrolls) rather than going RW10/AM10 route, unless one really has RP reasons for it, or doesn't mind dying too much.

A question I do have regarding the AM spells / day ability - Can you take (and use) SLA - Premonition if you have excluded divination as a school?

Yes, you can. In this respect, you can ditch the CL concept altogether and use as many SLA as possible as a RW/AM in order to compensate for the restrictions (it's been attempted before by a fellow RW at least, while I was playing mine. He died a lot, though...). However, beware: without Spell Power and Mastery of Elements, Archmage might not be worth taking over, say Frost Mage, or simply ditching RW and going the AM route unrestrained. Also, if you play AM, you should seriously consider Arcane Fire.

So after a bit of trial and error, the below are possible.

I'm not sure of how important ICE is - I've never put much value in AC as I generally have won a fight before it begins, however I've included a build with it in.

I'd forgot the red wizards spell power isn't going to affect his mords unless he takes abjuration - though not a bad pick if you want to be a huge dispeller, it's probably a niche choice.

Build achieves the extra 2 int by dropping epic spell focus (besides the final build) and taking an epic spell with an AM pick (turns out you can take epic ruin as it's coded like a spell like ability). Though I do question if epic spells are even worth it given how low their DC are in comparison. It's possibly better to take an extra SLA pick instead.

RW build: with int 30, imp combat expertise:
41 DC on chosen school, 38 DC for the secondary, 37 DC for the others.
Metamagic: Empower, Quicken, Extend
Improved Expertise

RW build: int 32 (Drop ICE for more int).
42 DC on chosen school, 39 DC for the secondary, 38 DC for the others.
Metamagic: Extend, Empower, Quicken

RW build: int 32 - All out glass cannon (loses 1 metamagic).
43 DC on chosen school, 39 DC for the secondary, 38 DC for the others.
Metamagic: Empower, Quicken

43DC on a CL38 spell is about as scary as it gets, though you can only take 2 meta magic Personally I'd consider losing extend, but it's not an easy choice - If everythings going well, you don't need extended spells and if things go badly - I think quicken is more likely to save your hide.

lilani wrote:So after a bit of trial and error, the below are possible.

I'm not sure of how important ICE is - I've never put much value in AC as I generally have won a fight before it begins, however I've included a build with it in.

When you play well, that's generally the case. As in, some 90-95% of the times. Since you tend to fight a lot in NWN2, that 5% can mean a few deaths too many.

My current wizard (who doesn't have CE/ICE, but gets to that AC differently) has been lvl 30 for a while, and has a grand total of zero deaths. He faced everything (alone and in group) on the server aside from the Great White Dragon. That is what I consider acceptable. If you don't mind the occasional death every couple of days (or every laggy event), then you'll be fine.

I'd forgot the red wizards spell power isn't going to affect his mords unless he takes abjuration - though not a bad pick if you want to be a huge dispeller, it's probably a niche choice.

Yes, it's aactually a surprisingly strong choice, but before deciding what to specialize in, I think you should decide what you are willing to part with (or, at least, do so contemporarily): that way, you can adjust the build to compensate for the losses. Because it's a very big deal to lose two schools, unfortunately.

Build achieves the extra 2 int by dropping epic spell focus (besides the final build) and taking an epic spell with an AM pick (turns out you can take epic ruin as it's coded like a spell like ability). Though I do question if epic spells are even worth it given how low their DC are in comparison. It's possibly better to take an extra SLA pick instead.

Taking the Epic Spell on AM Arcana is a bug that should have been fixed. Team might consider it an exploit, so watch out for that. If it turns out to be not allowed, you can pick Premonition as SLA, ditch Divination as a school, focus some heavy duty destructive school like Necromancy and memorize an additional Wail of the Banshee (instead of Shades, for instance) to compensate for the loss of offensive power.

However, having at least one Epic Spell is important for such a wizard: it's powerful (and 38-39 DC is excellent, btw), it's faster to cast (since it's a SLA) and can't be rupted. Moreover, it usually offers something you generally cannot have (see Entropic Husk, Vampiric Feast and Greater Ruin as probing examples. If you have questions, ask away!)

43DC on a CL38 spell is about as scary as it gets, though you can only take 2 meta magic Personally I'd consider losing extend, but it's not an easy choice - If everythings going well, you don't need extended spells and if things go badly - I think quicken is more likely to save your hide.

Yes, I believe it's very hard to top DC 44 on an arcanist (and to get there, you need Shadow Magic). I agree with you on Quicken, I refuse to play without...but I have a "revolutionary" idea for you: don't drop Extend. Drop Empower. If you go all-out DC, you'll want to focus on using save-or-else spells, anyway. Extend can even make your cloud spells (Cloud of Bewilderment, Cloudkill, Wall of Fire, Acid Fog, Grease, Web...) extremely powerful, aside from being absolutely essential in DM events.

If this is the way you want to go, then once you decided which school to specialize on and which ones to lose, we can share some ideas on how to make it as survivable as possible and which spells can be very valuable to you.

@chamb: I am not sure about the interaction between AT and AM, since this kind of cross-classing used to be forbidden until very recently. However, a couple of observations:

- The requirements, considered 3b20, are very hard to meet, if even possible.
- You would not manage to fit in HiPS, so you'd lack a reliable way to land your SA
- ASoC is far more beneficial to this concept than Arcane Fire