Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

mrm3ntalist wrote:What will happen if those players realise that they did something wrong with their build? Even if someone just bought an epic item and after a week realises that he messed his build?

I think the argument here is that "perfect" vs "almost perfect" is something you should be able to live with by RP standards. It's also worth noting that the idea is to keep epic gear from becoming a necessary asset. By surrendering your epic gear in RCR, you're guaranteeing that people can get by with +3 items.

Planehopper wrote: What is your perceived outcome without this massive change? Is it only the aforementioned speculative power creep?

There's nothing speculative about it. The fact is that our server is already hard on new players who don't have expensive items like regen cloaks from the very beginning. It's sort of an inevitable consequence that everyone gravitates towards the top in a capped system with no decay. Think of this as being similar to the XP penalty for RCR. The Avernus shop rescued our economy from some horrifying inflation, but it's not going to last if those items stick around indefinitely.

It's important to remember that the value of what you have isn't determined by the stats themselves, but the distribution of stats compared to what everyone else has, since the world has to be balanced for everybody.

gedweyignasia wrote:I think the argument here is that "perfect" vs "almost perfect" is something you should be able to live with by RP standards. It's also worth noting that the idea is to keep epic gear from becoming a necessary asset. By surrendering your epic gear in RCR, you're guaranteeing that people can get by with +3 items.

I understand your thoughts and intentions. They are not wrong or bad or anything. Its just not fun. The same way those alpha servers are no fun. Who likes to have to decide whether to stay with a build mechanically crippled or lose all his items?

Yes, it advocates for higher standards, such as sticking with your build, right or wrong, learning to rely on lesser items etc, but at the same time the fun factor goes down the drain.

What makes more sense, a new system that is complicated and frustrating to existing players, that is being proposed with an intent to help new players cope without these magic items.. or making the areas able to be enjoyed by these new players without said magic items?

If the perceived need is due to the server being hard on new players, that seems like an area fix to me.

Planehopper wrote:If the perceived need is due to the server being hard on new players, that seems like an area fix to me.

Remember that enemies have to be fair to all players of a given level, not just new players.

mrm3ntalist wrote:

gedweyignasia wrote:I think the argument here is that "perfect" vs "almost perfect" is something you should be able to live with by RP standards. It's also worth noting that the idea is to keep epic gear from becoming a necessary asset. By surrendering your epic gear in RCR, you're guaranteeing that people can get by with +3 items.

I understand your thoughts and intentions. They are not wrong or bad or anything. Its just not fun. The same way those alpha servers are no fun. Who likes to have to decide whether to stay with a build mechanically crippled or lose all his items?

Yes, it advocates for higher standards, such as sticking with your build, right or wrong, learning to rely on lesser items etc, but at the same time the fun factor goes down the drain.

If you mess up your build there's still the painful but feasible solution of asking a DM to substract exp points in order to go back to the level where you made the mistake. You'll still keep your first class and lvl 1 feats though.

While not very fun in itself you have to weight it against what is coming : ie back to inflation and general power creep for the PCs thanks to the new items. However there is no more room to add a new epic shop after that to push back the inflation further away this time as those items sold in the Averns shop are similar to the top items the random generator can produce.

Either we draw the line here or we continue adding more and more powerful items then scale up the content so that it remains a challenge and the loot generator so that it remains relevant. This is not fun at all, also it can last some time but eventually you'll reach the limits of nwn2.

In the long run the solution proposed by gedweyignasia seems better than the rampant power creep & inflation problem we're facing. What other solutions are there ?

I would definitely say something like this should be the absolute last attempt to fix the system. It would do exactly what it intends, but it also feels like a rather drastic measure.

I wouldn't say the Avernus shop "rescued" us from inflation, but rather passed the problem from gold/value to power. I personally think it was a much more manageable problem when it was focused on gold/value.

Make it so items marked as "epic" can be sold at the Avernus shop for reasonable amounts of gold, and make it so items from the Avernus shop cannot be traded/dropped once equipped. This allows rare items from the RIG/grandfathered gear to be traded and passed down, but also allows for some powerful equipment to leave the economy.

If you can't find a player to buy your old epic gear why not trade it to the Avernus shop for something that can actually help one of your characters?

I simply think we should explore more options before directly impacting the way the RCR mechanic works. Even though it was intended only as a way to retire characters it has been used (and allowed to be used) as a way to rebuild existing characters for quite some time. Destroying epic items with the RCR mechanic would require a change in RCR policy, as a character rebuild has never before involved the loss of equipment.

So long as the RCR mechanic is allowed to be used for character rebuilds all changes involving RCRs have to take this into account. The way I see it you either have to allow epic level equipment to survive the RCR process or you have to make it so RCRs cannot be used for rebuilds.

Maybe make it so the RCR bot can store items, and is the only one who can store epic level gear. If that's possible it should do the trick.

I don't foresee there being a real need for this, myself, unless there's an overwhelming call for it from the player base.

This isn't really a game that's meant to be "balanced," and our economy -- such as it is -- is mostly reset when long-time players leave the game and newcomers take their place.

Most people will only stay engaged in the server for a maximum of about 2-3 years before they disappear, at least for a time, and most stay for much shorter periods of time (3-to-12 months at a time). So there's already a fairly constant flux in player population, with concomitant and perennial shifts in the haves and have-nots (as yesterday's paupers become tomorrow's trade lords).

This will also serve to increase workload for DMs (or whoever is designated to solve these issues), due to:

Character Development (like it or not, RCRs are used for that on this server. They have been in the past and will continue to be such. They are not just for retired characters, that is a misnomer at best).

Bugs, that crop up during development and don't show any signs of going away soon (people have a right to enjoy the character that they are playing, and bugs can take away from that).

New Content, such as skills, classes, feats, etc. For instance, back when sense motive was implemented, characters who previously displayed talent in it were, by the rules, no longer allowed to (thus, they had to RCR and acquire the skill to fit their RP). Characters might also be mimicking certain classes in their RP that don't exist ICly, etc. The "play your sheet" rule enforces the fact that this needs to be taken into consideration, especially so. Also, server standards for power might heighten further down along the road, future growth should also be taken into consideration for ideas.

Changes to content, such as nerfs (think the current FvS debate that is being talked about) that detriment characters and the play-ability/quality of life of builds.

And other issues that might crop up along the way, as well.

Also, it presents an issue. How does this happen in RP (how do items become untradable)? It will certainly negatively effect trade RP, as well as RP centered around gifts (my character finds something one of their friends would appreciate, and wants to give it to them, or even my character might have a reason to outfit another character for a task they need to perform), etc. What positives towards Roleplay will it have? How will it better facilitate RP?

I don't think inflation in item stats is the true issue. That is generally nearly impossible, with the exception of new items being added (which is fine, generally speaking all the new epic merchants have been fairly in line and balanced).

The real issue is the "trade only" economic quirk we have developed, primarily due to the fact that gold is perceived to generally be worthless. Having merchants sell epic items fixes this to a degree, however, it is a temporary fix (theoretically, every player will have the items eventually and gold will become worthless again). A better fix is to introduce more consumables, things like:

--Potion/Scroll merchants, who sell high level (20+?) scrolls and potions.
--Merchants who sell consumble items that grant effects that cannot normally be acquired (dragon breath scrolls/items, etc).
--Increasing the cost of recharging items.
--Allowing 1 time VFX changes to weapons, at a cost.
--etc.

This idea could be perceived as fixing that, but only because it utterly removes the ability to trade the items that are ideal to acquire. Not only that, but it could also create a power gap between long-standing players who actually have the items and newer players (or players who are worse on their luck) who now couldn't even receive these items as gifts, let alone as purchases from other players.

These issues would need to be addressed, as well.

metaquad4 wrote:Potion/Scroll merchants, who sell high level (20+?) scrolls and potions.
--Merchants who sell consumble items that grant effects that cannot normally be acquired (dragon breath scrolls/items, etc).
--Increasing the cost of recharging items.
--Allowing 1 time VFX changes to weapons, at a cost.

Master alchemist... Though the number of players WILLING to buy higher cl potions is, regrettably small. Not sure if allowing higher cl scrolls would be any more effective.

gedweyignasia wrote:Since high-tier equipment never exits the game economy, there is an inevitable inflation in item stats.

Background on a problem with the game economy

Proposed change:
When an "epic" item is equipped (+4 or better gear, other items of that value), it becomes undroppable. The item is destroyed when the character is RCR'd. Players who no longer want an item they have bound to their character can ask a DM to remove the item, but will not be compensated in any way for the loss. This would include all items from the Avernus store and "grandfathered" items that can no longer be acquired. Items would continue to be available indefinitely as long as its owner was not RCR'd.

Few issues I see:
1. One of the problem with current economy is lack of gold income sources. That's how I see it, anyway. Monsters rarely drop gold or items, so the primary source of income is praying to the gods of randomness and repeatedly looting small number of chests, hoping to get lucky. Also, item prices are inflated compared to PnP prices. Currently, allowing item exchange helps with that. Once you get your horribly overpriced minimal set of +3 equipment, you can stop worrying about getting all that.
2. While I like idea of non-transferrable equipment, I don't think that asking dms to deal with this is a good idea (there should be a tool for it), and there should be a tool for getting rid of it. Also, marking it "non-transferrable" on equip will be a source of a lot of grief to players, due to accidents. it is like that one time where one of my low str chars ended up with non-droppable cursed Full Plate armor in inventory and could find even one cleric to get rid of it.

I think a better idea would be to allow players to enchant their favorite item with some effect making the item "epic", unique and non-transferrable in the process. Basically, you could pay a blacksmith or a magician and for ridiculous amount of gold turn your greatsword +3 into greatsword +4 +1 fire damage or something like that. That equipment would then become premanently bound to your character and non-transferrable. Basically, enchanting services. You can get something unique, but you won't be able to ever trade it or sell it. It would also be great if you could repeatedly upgrade equipment you started with, instead of looking to buy new things all the time. It would also be great if you could "reforge" one weapon into another, transferring enchantment and ALSO making it non-transferrable.

I'm not sure how avernus store fit into all this. I think that basic +3 and maybe +4 items should be easily obtainable, and characters should be able to get something rare or maybe unique only for themselves, with sufficient investment. Avernus store, however... I do not even find idea of that store very interesting. Having enchanting would be much better.

gedweyignasia wrote: By surrendering your epic gear in RCR, you're guaranteeing that people can get by with +3 items.

I don't see how limiting some players will help newer players. Even back when I had crap for gear I never complained that it was "unfair" that players that have been on the server much longer than me had better gear.

Also, as some other people have stated, those with builds they are happy with are less likely to RCR their character meaning it is really just going to hurt people who messed up their builds.

Care to share what the most epic stuff you ever saw a pc have was? I am curious exactly how much of an issue this is. Are my characters really that badly geared compared to y'all?

Maecius wrote: our economy -- such as it is -- is mostly reset when long-time players leave the game and newcomers take their place.

Most people will only stay engaged in the server for a maximum of about 2-3 years before they disappear, at least for a time, and most stay for much shorter periods of time (3-to-12 months at a time). So there's already a fairly constant flux in player population, with concomitant and perennial shifts in the haves and have-nots (as yesterday's paupers become tomorrow's trade lords).

Honestly I am not so sure about this. A lot of "New" players are really old players who created new accounts. This game is only available on gog not steam which holds the vast majority of the pc game market. Combine this with its age and a virtual requirement of modding to access multiplayer and you have a very obscure game world by any measure. I doubt we get more than one or two new players a month. I'd say more than half of us have been around, on and off perhaps, for 3+ years. Different accounts, forum names, key codes etc sure. Same people though. Bgtscc has this niche market cornered and people don't leave it lightly after thousands of hours and a +4 vorpal sword of cupcakes. For this reason that sword is not going to fade away any time soon. It will probably be here for the time of troubles and even nwn3/bgtscc (2?)

AlwaysSummer Day wrote:Care to share what the most epic stuff you ever saw a pc have was? I am curious exactly how much of an issue this is. Are my characters really that badly geared compared to y'all?

People rarely show off their equipment, you should just really go to the new avernus merchant and check available stuff.

Some of the items there are quite ridiculous. I mean, I could post some of the stats here, but that would probably ruin the fun for some people.

Judging by comments I occasionally see on "character building" forums and nwn2db, +4 items are perceived as easily obtainable by at least some of the old-timer players. I think I have 3 of +4 items total across all characters I ever had.

What about the player who has an epic item he uses and then finds/buys a better one to use? You're essentially saying he can't sell it for anything, nor can he trade it. How is that fair? The use of mules or even the banking system could be problematic. So to could the effect of character glitches or the introduction of new material prompting RCR's (e.g. New feats, spells, prc's). If those problems could be sorted I personally wouldn't care - I only play one PC and his gear is pretty much set.