Paladin Prestige Class Questions

[Akroma666]

Aren't these kit classes still bugged? I know im sitting on level 10 with divinite level 1 again.

[ARHicks00]

Do Clerics, Rangers, Barbarians, and Fighters have kits too?

[Valefort]

No.

[chad878262]

Paladin is the first class to have kits built for. Rasael had plans for other classes to get kits as well, but none are available at this time.

[ARHicks00]

Paladin is the first class to have kits built for. Rasael had plans for other classes to get kits as well, but none are available at this time.

Some like the Cleric need some, I mean Warpriest and Dragon Slayer are a joke since they give you 1/2 spell progression and Hospitaler got nerfed with 6/10 progression from their 7/10 progression. Morning Lord/Doomguide is unnecessarily class because a Sun domain Cleric > Morning/Doomguide can get all the benefits without losing epic feats. The only reason these classes are a joke is because a cleric has no reason to cross class with these class as they do fine without having to cross-class. You want to play a Battle Cleric? Then play a paladin or a Favored Soul cross-class with paladin or Black guard. You want to play a Caster-Cleric then play a Druid or Bard.

The only thing that makes the cleric stand out is that they have protection spells and turn undead. Druids, Mages, Bards can nuke and Druids and Bard can heal. Paladin can man the frontline just fine as well as turn undead fine at later levels. Cleric need kits to change the roleplaying and gameplay for them. Ditto with some of these other classes.

[mrm3ntalist]

Paladin is the first class to have kits built for. Rasael had plans for other classes to get kits as well, but none are available at this time.

Some like the Cleric need some, I mean Warpriest and Dragon Slayer are a joke since they give you 1/2 spell progression and Hospitaler got nerfed with 6/10 progression from their 7/10 progression.

Both Warpriest and Dragon Slayer get high BAB. There is no way to get full casting progession and Fighter BAB.

Morning Lord/Doomguide is unnecessarily class because a Sun domain Cleric > Morning/Doomguide can get all the benefits without losing epic feats. The only reason these classes are a joke is because a cleric has no reason to cross class with these class as they do fine without having to cross-class. You want to play a Battle Cleric? Then play a paladin or a Favored Soul cross-class with paladin or Black guard. You want to play a Caster-Cleric then play a Druid or Bard.

Those classes are no joke if they are build with a specific vision in mind

The only thing that makes the cleric stand out is that they have protection spells and turn undead. Druids, Mages, Bards can nuke and Druids and Bard can heal. Paladin can man the frontline just fine as well as turn undead fine at later levels. Cleric need kits to change the roleplaying and gameplay for them. Ditto with some of these other classes.

I disagree. Battle clerics were already strong enough. With the addition of the Hierophant PRC, caster clerics are a force not to mess with. Many potentials builds just with the addition of that PRC.

[chad878262]

Caster clerics can do quite well do not sure what you mean by play a druid or bard (???) If you want a caster cleric.

Kits are not the same as prc's, so comparing to war priest is not accurate...

[ARHicks00]

Both Warpriest and Dragon Slayer get high BAB. There is no way to get full casting progession and Fighter BAB.

They are called Paladin for a reason. I am not at all asking for upgrades because even if you gave Warpriest full progression, without epic level feats, it's a garbage prestige class. Warpriest is useless with just only 10 levels. Ditto with the Dragon Slayer PRC.

I can easily make a build with 26 to 24 caster levels that gets 28 BAB, but what would be the point? Because it would be a gimped version of a paladin or a less stellar battle cleric.

Those classes are no joke if they are build with a specific vision in mind

Doomguide/Morninglord? There is a testing Mod that allows you to test builds. Doomguide/Morninglord vs. Sun Domain Pure Cleric can pretty much turn everything, but the Sun Domain can still get epic levels. Basically, what I mean is whereas Doomguide/Morninglord specializes at turning Undead a Sun Domain Pure Cleric has more versatility while still being good at turn undead. The reason you are playing a Doomguide/Morninglord is for roleplaying purpose only. Nothing stops you from playing a pure cleric and calling yourself a morning lord or doomguide.

I disagree. Battle clerics were already strong enough. With the addition of the Hierophant PRC, caster clerics are a force not to mess with. Many potentials builds just with the addition of that PRC.

Battle Clerics are clerics who are good at fighting and do very little spellcasting. A caster or healer cleric are more concern with spellcasting strength. I think Hierophant is the only good PRC class if you are looking to increase your caster abilities and damage with negative and positive energy. And what the heck does Advance Divine Spell Power do? Give you Turning level equal to caster level or something. I'm not sure since Hierophant does not continue Turning Undead Progression.

Caster clerics can do quite well do not sure what you mean by play a druid or bard (???) If you want a caster cleric.

Kits are not the same as prc's, so comparing to war priest is not accurate...

I wasn't comparing Kits with PRCs, but rather I saying Cleric may need something other than the available PRCs than ones they have now, but now that I think about it the domains add more to the gameplay so that may not be necessary.

Bards can nuke using Curse Song, Hymn/Song of Requiem, and cast spells. Druids were pretty much built for nuking along with Mages. I'm not saying caster clerics are not good, but other classes specialize or bring more to the table than a cleric trying to be a dedicated caster. And this is not to say a cleric sucks, but having few PRCs to cross-class with they have very few options to increase their versatility or specialization. (Ditto when being a battle cleric)

[AC81]

Clerics are one of the most powerful classes on this PW and they DO have a lot of versatility. They definitely do not need an upgrade of any sort as it currently stands. The reason why paladins got kits at all is because a player stated that paladins in NWN2 do not play as traditional paladins (ie, holy warriors) and he wanted to see paladins get more versatility as they were an underplayed class. With the addition of Heirophant, divine caster builds just got a huge boost that they didn't need at all. I understand your point when comparing bard and druid with cleric, but the fact is clerics are better healers, they are also stronger against undead of which there are many on this server. The only class that makes a better healer IMO is the favoured soul, but it's basically better than everyone at everything so I won't go there.

[ARHicks00]

Clerics are one of the most powerful classes on this PW and they DO have a lot of versatility. They definitely do not need an upgrade of any sort as it currently stands. The reason why paladins got kits at all is because a player stated that paladins in NWN2 do not play as traditional paladins (ie, holy warriors) and he wanted to see paladins get more versatility as they were an underplayed class. With the addition of Heirophant, divine caster builds just got a huge boost that they didn't need at all. I understand your point when comparing bard and druid with cleric, but the fact is clerics are better healers, they are also stronger against undead of which there are many on this server. The only class that makes a better healer IMO is the favoured soul, but it's basically better than everyone at everything so I won't go there.

1. It is one of the reason why I posted the link to the two Paladin PRC classes.

2. I'm aware of the Heirophant PRC.

3. Clerics can be versatile if you give them Zen Archery and Exotic Weapon/Martial weapon feat with 20 strength/20 charisma/20 Wisdom, but cannot get EDM or specialize primarily in strength. It is because the cleric class lacks PRCs with specialization (or at least in areas they don't already have an advantage in), the class is pretty mundane even if it's versatile with the right feats. Also I think Heirophant PRC hurts the class' Turn Undead Progression unless that Advance Divine Spell Power does what I think it does.

[AC81]

A clerics gameplay can be versatile. They can go EDM, strength based, caster clerics. They can be turners, even ones that turn outsiders and shapeshifters. However every cleric is different based purely on their God, each God having a unique lore surrounding itself and its priests. As for PrCs, there are many that provide flavour for a variety of playstyles. They may not be optimised, but clerics hardly need to be optimised to be successful on BG.

[ARHicks00]

A clerics gameplay can be versatile. They can go EDM, strength based, caster clerics. They can be turners, even ones that turn outsiders and shapeshifters. However every cleric is different based purely on their God, each God having a unique lore surrounding itself and its priests. As for PrCs, there are many that provide flavour for a variety of playstyles. They may not be optimised, but clerics hardly need to be optimised to be successful on BG.

1. I'm not saying they can't get any of that stuff, but if you go one path, you pretty much mess up your status trying to specialize at one thing. Bard for example can melee, cast, and heal without changing their attributes. Clerics have to spread themselves thin to do what a bard can do. Ditto if they want to do EDM as they are likely to end up with 14 to 15 Wisdom, which is in the same ballpark as a paladin, except paladins are better at piling damage than clerics.

2. Unless you go Malar who gets Moon and Evil, you can only turn Undead. Selune and other evil deity can allow you turn one of the two, but Malar can turn both.

3. I think you missed my about why the PRCs are lacking.

Warpriest - Warpriest High BAB progression is redundant due to Divine Power. You're just gimping your spellcasting and losing epic level feats to get +10 BAB. Most of their feat/spells are similar to what you already get making it further redundant.

Dragon Slayer - Same as Warpriest, but you get somewhat useful feats. Combine with Warpriest and Hospitaler, you can make a decent high BAB cleric with some decent CLs, 33 Spot, 30/+3 Tumble, but it would just be a gimped paladin or a less stellar battle cleric.

Black Flame Zealot - You have to cross with Rogue and it also gimps your spellcasting.

Hospitaler - Good to use to get access to certain epic level bonus feats, but it's 6/10 progression and no turn undead progression make it hard to work with. It's borderline Warpriest since it has no real specialization.

Hierophant - The only good PRC as it expands on existing abilities making them better "battle-casters" and "combat-healers." Just wish the requirement allowed 13 Lore instead of 15.

[AC81]

How do you mess up your stats trying to get one thing? If that's the thing you're building for then it doesn't matter. I understand what you're saying but I think you're looking at it from the wrong PoV.
Bards can heal and cast - sure. But if they're silenced, they can't heal and their casting abilities are nowhere near what a clerics are. They basically buff and then save short term buffs for boss fights. I've played a bard to 30 here and there are definitely many ways that clerics outshine them and many other ways they can be shut down.
As for using PrC's to create a gimped paladin - only if you used the PrC's incorrectly. Two PrC's you mentioned (Hosp and DS), are both ideal for 3 level dips. They can be put to more use by other class combo's that need their high BAB. Clerics are much more powerful than paladins when used right. Paladin's simply do not have the spellbook to keep up with clerics. Remember, a lot of those PrC's aren't just for clerics, just as several other PrC's that perhaps aren't predominantly divine can be used by clerics. The beauty with clerics is that generally no matter what build it is, the strength of the cleric class enables it to perform well.
The biggest limiting factor for a cleric is it's deity and that in turn may prohibit many PrC's. But this isn't really an issue because clerics are quite versatile if they want to be a turner but don't want to worship Lathander, they can still make decent turners.
Now, I know from the NWN2 Character Builder that you are a decent builder, but you maybe don't have the knowledge of this server to combine with basic build mechanics. It doesn't take much to be a melee 'powerhouse', when you combine that with a clerics ability to outlast and it's strengths against certain enemies (undead, etc) it is a very potent class with many playstyles available.

[ARHicks00]

How do you mess up your stats trying to get one thing? If that's the thing you're building for then it doesn't matter. I understand what you're saying but I think you're looking at it from the wrong PoV.
Bards can heal and cast - sure. But if they're silenced, they can't heal and their casting abilities are nowhere near what a clerics are. They basically buff and then save short term buffs for boss fights. I've played a bard to 30 here and there are definitely many ways that clerics outshine them and many other ways they can be shut down.
As for using PrC's to create a gimped paladin - only if you used the PrC's incorrectly. Two PrC's you mentioned (Hosp and DS), are both ideal for 3 level dips. They can be put to more use by other class combo's that need their high BAB. Clerics are much more powerful than paladins when used right. Paladin's simply do not have the spellbook to keep up with clerics. Remember, a lot of those PrC's aren't just for clerics, just as several other PrC's that perhaps aren't predominantly divine can be used by clerics. The beauty with clerics is that generally no matter what build it is, the strength of the cleric class enables it to perform well.
The biggest limiting factor for a cleric is it's deity and that in turn may prohibit many PrC's. But this isn't really an issue because clerics are quite versatile if they want to be a turner but don't want to worship Lathander, they can still make decent turners.
Now, I know from the NWN2 Character Builder that you are a decent builder, but you maybe don't have the knowledge of this server to combine with basic build mechanics. It doesn't take much to be a melee 'powerhouse', when you combine that with a clerics ability to outlast and it's strengths against certain enemies (undead, etc) it is a very potent class with many playstyles available.

1. Balance clerics are not good at neither melee, range attack, and spellcasting despite being able to do all three. EDM battle cleric builds are bad at spellcasting and range attacks. Spellcasting clerics are good at casting and range, but are bad a melee and solid damage. Basically, they can only be good in one area rather than all of them.

2. Bards have bad fort saves and Silence requires them to save against a well save. A good bard has universal saves on top of a good defense. (49 AC) Even if you manage to silence them, they can fight pretty good. They can cover all three bases without sacrificing anything as their songs and power ups increase their damage well as their hitting ability. Their songs and spells also serve as nukes and/or heals. Even when Bard has run out of spells they are good allowing them to push on long after their buffs have run out.

3. http://nwn2db.com/build/?256000 Cleric/War Priest/DS/Hospit. Depending on how I move the levels around, it can get 27 to 28 BAB with 27 to 24 spellcasting. The problem is, Divine Power makes a high BAB redundant and it's turn undead is gimped. The only thing going for it is that when I'm done with it, it does less damage and will get the same AC as most of my fighter builds.

4. I'm well aware of how powerful a Cleric is, I have been making them for years, but when you compare them to other classes, the other classes can do it better. A bard can nuked with Hymn/Song for 80 to 100 damage while fighting you at the same time. Ditto with the other classes.

5. You misconception of me. I understand server, what I am saying is that the cleric (Whether this server or other ones) PRCs are redundant due to spells that give them the same thing. As you can see with my Cleric build in the link. It can get high BAB, but so can a pure cleric with Divine Power. When I look at the cleric, I'm not just looking at the ability/skill/spell/roleplaying aspect, but how to maximize it's existing abilities WHILE ROLEPLAYING. The status, skills, and feats have to have meaning or is it just another powerbuild.

[metaquad4]

1) That is true of nearly anyone. You'll want to specialize, to be successful in nwn2.

2) If you point silence on the ground, it is saveless.

3) Against dispels, you'll be gimped. And, you won't need that high of AB for everything. Just particularly tough fights. Use divine power, and save it for then. The AC on mobs here isn't that bad, its the HP that mobs here have.

4) A bard is a great support, but I would tie it with cleric in that regard. That support is often on a cooldown and heals are available whenever you need them. More reliable. Also, with hierophant, faith healing is just .. .amazing. 500 heal/damage if undead mass heals are fantastic. You aren't a bard with their 10 round heal/damage aura and 10 round cooldown, but you can provide your own buffs and perform more consistently and with more potency to groups. You can do good damage and provide good support in the form of buffs (mass buffs are great!), as well as more potent healing than a bard. You just need to build correctly, you don't even need to build for support. Cleric/Hierophant, or Cleric with Hierophant and Blackguard/Paladin make for wonderful builds. Throw some rogue (no paladin/blackguard though, as Hierophant is amazing) in there for expose weakness (or water domain, if you worship a deity with it) for even better effects. You'll have damage in the form of EDM and Expose Weakness, and support in the form of Hierophant's bonuses.

5) See my suggestion post about this (I do dislike deity specific things), but stormlord and silverstar both supply really good damage bonuses. Techsmith supplies a good summon to buff. Master Alchemist provides a reliable ranged attack for casters (perfected alchemist flasks, if you don't have fire domain aka fireseeds) as well as crafting potential for making gold. Shadow Adept provides some excellent DC-focused feats. Hierophant is, of course, excellent (providing you with blast infidel/faith healing, increased caster level, runes, and better turning for the turning inclined). Hospitalier is decent for if you are building a combat focused build and are taking another PRC, for its bonus feats. Morninglord is excellent for fighting undead, though that is rather niche.

There are some none specific cleric PRCs as well. I mentioned master alchemist above. Harper Agent is not as good as 3 rogue levels, but is decent for skills. Thaumaturge is good for an additional summon for you to buff. Dragonslayer nets some nice benefits and is high BAB.

There are a few others (warpriest and black flame zealot) which could use some work, but have potential if the staff updates them.