Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Flasmix wrote:Wirg can speak the native Amn language. *Throws a bag of money at them*

now there is a "Real" hero.

Thank you for your feedback everyone. I am going to try to answer the feedback here generally as opposed to line by line, so please let us (the DM Team) know if we do not answer one of your points in my post here by shooting us a PM. We implemented the Half-Drow appearance and surface NPC/polity reactions ruling this week as there have been numerous cases over the years where Half-Drow characters that rolled standard character appearances (so not a standard Half-Drow looking disguised PC that disguised doesn’t look Half-Drow) that looked essentially surface Half-Elven were going into surface polities where their appearance as canon lore based Half-Drow would have been treated quite differently (and the DM Team has ruled quite negatively and indistinct from full Drow as a lore base without previous RP altering it otherwise) by surface NPCs and polities (and possibly if PCs so chose in their roleplay, by surface race PCs as well) than as Half-Elves.

NOTE: Of course Half-Drow after character creation can RP wearing disguises, including wigs as appropriate IC, according to server disguise rules, just as any character race can do so. The ruling cited in this thread only had to do with the appearance of Half-Drow at character creation and without wearing any disguises and walking about and how surface NPCs and polities would react as a matter of base lore before RP initiatives to change anything by PCs.

As a result, any time a surface Half-Elven looking Half-Drow PC would enter say Baldur’s Gate or the Friendly Arm Inn, they would be metagaming and godmoding the reactions of many NPCs and PCs that would have reacted negatively. In fact, short of looking at their character sheet in the DM client, there would not have even been a way to tell visually such PCs were even Half-Drow versus surface Half-Elven as such PCs did not have even one Half-Drow racial appearance trait beyond being the correct lore based height, when in canon FR lore this is clearly not the case as there is a distinct difference in appearance between surface Half-Elves and Half-Drow. Initially, we thought about ruling on individual cases rather than making a public ruling about it, but we realized here that privately ruling would be inconsistent to Half-Drow PCs with a surface Half-Elf appearance that we came across as DMs, while others we perhaps missed.

Instead, to be consistent, we concluded that we really needed to have a stated public ruling for all Half-Drow playing players. We also wanted the rules to be clear going forward for new Half-Drow characters as well. Despite some of the opinions expressed in this thread, there have been a few new Half-Drow characters rolled lately and this is partly why this even came up as an issue we felt we needed to rule on publicly sooner rather than later.

Are there possibly races that we are not mentioning in this ruling that should look a certain way in canon lore that generally don’t on our server? There probably are many, yes. Does this mean that this ruling is inconsistent or unfair? No, as these other potential non-ruled upon character race appearance breaks from canon lore are not causing consistent and sustained problems with metagaming and godmoding surface NPC reactions – it was this problem with Half-Drow that forced us to ultimately rule on it. If you do think there is an example otherwise though, please PM the DM Team and we will of course seriously look at ruling on these other character race discrepancies with canon lore appearance examples as well.

You may disagree with the DM Team’s reasoning here, and of course we respect that, but the above description in general was our internal reasoning. Below, I am going to dive further into the lore of the decision. First, the objective character appearance when not disguised issue. Second, the surface NPC and polity treatment of Half-Drow that are not disguised issue. Third, I am going to touch on a Half-Orc versus Half-Drow comparison raised.

1.

Further, all characters that are Half-Drow must have their standard in character appearance depicted at character creation and thereafter with dusky skin and silver or white hair, with a broad range of eye colors allowed, per DM Team interpretation of Forgotten Realms lore on the topic.

FR3E Pg 16 on Half-Drow

Drow half-elves tend to have dusky skin, silver or white hair, and human eye colors.

Races of Faerun Pg 63 on Half-Drow

In most lands, half-drow are rare. Since so
many drow are irredeemably evil, they only
mate with humans by way of rape or slavery.
The only exception are the half-drow of the land of Dambrath
in the Shining South, who arise from the centuries-old drow subjugation
of the human folk of that land.
Half-drow have dusky skin, silver or white hair, and a broad
range of eye colors. They are often just as dark-hearted as their
elven parents, but with a bitter resentment that comes from
knowing that they are considered second-class members of drow
society. In human society, half-drow are distrusted nearly as
much as their full-blooded cousins. Despite this, good half-drow
are much less rare than good drow. Whether this has to do with
the influence of their human blood, or the desire to rebel against
the drow who treat them so poorly, is difficult to tell.

Monster Manuel 3.5 Pg 102 on Half-Drow

Half-Elf
Half-elves are not truly an elf subrace, but they are often mistaken
for elves. They may be outcasts from their parents’ societies or welcomed
into the elven or human community, depending on the
attitudes the two groups have for each other. Half-elves usually
inherit a good blend of their parents’ physical characteristics, so a
half-aquatic elf has greenish skin, a half-drow has dusky skin and
light hair, and so on.

FR Waterdeep and the North and 2.5 Boxed Set Pg 370 on Half-Drow

Tianna Skyflower
High Forest (Dire Wood)
8th level thief/magic-user
CE, Malar
Elf female, IN 15, DEX 18, CN 16
Tianna is of mixed elven, drow and
human bloodlines. She is duskyskinned
and dark-haired with the
crown a blaze of purest white through
the crown. She is able to disguise her
distinctive appearance by using a magical
item called the ring of five visages,
which produces an illusion of another
appearance. Her followers are dusky
half-drows, drow-human half breeds.

Hair of Half-Drow

In summary, we have two lore sources globally (If you think we are missing some, please PM us, but these were all we could find after an exhaustive search of canon Forgotten Realms lore.) that say “silver or white hair”, which are both FR based and around 3E-3.5E. One that says “dark-haired with the crown a blaze of purest white through the crown” which is FR 2.5E based. One that says “light hair” that is D&D and not FR based. Looking at the three FR sources, this is where we got “silver or white” from, further noting that “light hair” not of FR does not contradict this.

Eyes of Half-Drow

We also have two lore sources globally (both FR) that agree on a broad range of eye colors (human eye colors essentially) being acceptable and the other two not mentioning it. This is where we got the eye color flexibility from in our ruling.

Skin of Half-Drow

We further have four lore sources globally (three FR and one D&D broadly) that all mention “dusky” skin. Two of these FR sources say it as a matter of fact (though one of those is a description of “some” or “one” Half-Drow to be fair), while one says “tend”. The D&D source says it as a matter of fact as well. So, looking at the preponderance of evidence here, we decided on the matter of fact interpretation when combined with a Races of Faerun quote such as this “In human society, half-drow are distrusted nearly as much as their full-blooded cousins”. As, “distrusted nearly as much” implies that Half-Drow are viewed by many surface polities nearly as badly as full Drow, fairly or not, and there must be an implicit reason for this, which we would rule based on the available lore is likely the similarly apparent look (to most surface folks outside of Dambrath) of darker hair and skin (though probably not eyes as most full Drow descriptions are described with red eyes) to NPCs on the surface, though we get there are objective differences on the tone of skin.

One likely reason would that be the two races look indistinct in major ways in human surface societies (even though objectively they are distinct and different, but we are talking subjective impressions, not objective anatomical facts) where most don’t know the racial appearance nuances of Half-Drow versus full Drow such as “dusky” Half-Drow skin versus “obsidian” full Drow skin (see full Drow lore below) or red versus human looking eyes, which really would be the case anywhere outside of Dambrath on the surface – the Underdark is a different matter. Of course, Dambrath is the surface lore exception to Half-Drow and full Drow being confused with each other for the most part according implicitly to Races of Faerun, but that is super far away from our server area and Half-Drow on the surface are implicitly extremely rare outside of the Dambrath area. More on Dambrath lore later.

Height

We saw noting to contradict this from any PHB edition or other lore books:

Races of Faerun Pg 63 on Half-Drow

Half-drow use the same age categories as other half-elves.
They use the standard half-elven height and weight entries from
Table 6–6 in the Player’s Handbook.

One clear difference then in canon lore is that Half-Drow are bigger and taller as Half-Elves are versus Drow – not that this is a surprising lore find, I don’t think anyone here is disputing this or ever did. We didn’t think that size was enough for NPCs to generally notice a difference on the surface outside of Dambrath, however.

Again, if you think we are missing canon lore here, please PM us what we missed as far as Half-Drow appearance descriptions.

Races of Faerun Pg 35 on Drow

Also called dark elves, the drow have black skin that resembles
polished obsidian and stark white or pale yellow hair. They commonly
have blood-red eyes, although pale eyes (so pale as to be
often mistaken for white) in shades of pale lilac, silver, pink, and
blue are not unknown. They also tend to be smaller and thinner
than most Faerûnian elves.

Monster Manuel Pg 103 on Drow

Also known as dark elves, drow are a depraved and evil subterranean
offshoot.
White is the most common hair color among drow, but almost
any pale shade is possible. Drow tend to be smaller and thinner
than other sorts of elves, and their eyes are often a vivid red.

FR3E Pg 13

Also called dark elves, the drow have black skin that resembles polished obsidian and stark white or pale yellow hair. They commonly have very pale eyes (so pale as to be often mistaken for white) in shades of pale lilac, silver, pink, and blue. They also tend to be smaller and thinner than most elves.

FR Underdark Pg 11

The skin of a drow can be any shade from dark gray to polished obsidian. His hair can be pale yellow, silver, or shite, and his eyes can be almost any color, including blood red.

FR Drizzt’s Guide to the UD Pg 18

The drow, also known as .dark
elves,. are chaotic evil elves
with skin like polished obsidian.
Shorter and more slender than
humans, they have pale eyes, stark
white hair, and finely chiseled features.

We then compared this ruled upon look to the above full Drow appearance descriptions. Remembering that on the surface outside of Dambrath (see lore later on Dambrath), Half-Drow are very rare and the subtleties of Half-Drow shades of “dusky” skin versus the “obsidian” (as stated in every found skin description of full Drow below) tone of skin of full Drow probably would not be very obvious to most NPCs and surface polities.
If you want to compare dusky versus obsidian definitionally, here are some ideas:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dusky

Definition of dusky duskier; duskiest 1 : somewhat dark in color; specifically : having dark skin 2 : marked by slight or deficient light : shadowy

In fact, the word “dusky” comes from dusk, which is the darker stage of twilight between day and night.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obsidian

Definition of obsidian : a dark natural glass formed by the cooling of molten lava

Picture of this glass:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian

Races of Faerun Pg 60 on surface Half-Elves

Common half-elves blend human and
elven features, influenced by the subrace
of their elven parent and the ethnicity
of their human parent. Moon
half-elves have pale skin tinged bluish
around the ears and chin, framing
their lower faces. Sun half-elves
have bronzed skin, and hair of
gold. Wild half-elves have
brown skin. Wood half-elves
have coppery skin tinged with
green highlights.

Notice that no non-drow Half-Elf is described as having “dusky” or “obsidian” skin in Races of Faerun or any other source we could find on surface Half-Elves.

Why does the Forgotten Realms lore ultimately use “Dusky” as a skin tone description for Half-Drow and “Obsidian” for full Drow? It’s pretty clear they are supposed to be anatomically different looking in terms of skin color (or the FR lore would have used dusky or obsidian skin descriptions for both races), with Drow much darker in tone. The issue is that holistically looking at all the lore on Half-Drow for our server area far away from Dambrath is that most surface NPCs would in fact view them as indistinct. Whether that then matters is how such surface NPCs look at Drow. In Athkatla, Darkhold, Roaringshore, and Soubar most NPCs probably don’t terror at the thought of Drow, so why would they at the thought of Half-Drow, which may as a lore base seem indistinct to them?

As ultimately, our Half-Drow ruling cited is about how surface polities and NPCs would perceive the difference between Half-Drow and full Drow as a base of lore, and our ruling is that they don’t really, without RP changing that lore base over time of course. Whether that negatively affects Half-Drow on the surface or not depends where they are at on the surface.

To be fair, anywhere, it would likely be easier for an individual Half-Drow to change surface NPC and polity base lore perceptions of him or her than a full Drow if such an effort IC was made in a polity more inclined to it – such as Nashkel, which I’ll elaborate on below – as there are differences in the two of course that would favor a Half-Drow, just not at the lore base standard encounter level before RP initiative is taken to improve NPC perceptions of Half-Drow. As far as “dusky” goes as a specific color for rolling Half-Drow PCs, we’ll leave that up to player good faith judgment (if you want to take a screen shot of the look if you are really concerned about it, you could just optionally run it by the DM Team and we can give a quick go ahead), but here is a sample picture of a Half-Drow "dusky" look as one option if you want to base on this from Races of Faerun.
2.

For in character purposes, Half-Drow will be viewed as and treated as legally and socially indistinct from full Drow by in character polities and NPCs of the surface.

Races of Faerun Pg 64 on Half-Drow

Half-Drow Society

In Dambrathan society, half-drow are aristocrats by birth. They
grow up pampered, but a great deal is expected of them. When
they become adults, they must do their best to prove that they
are worthy of their blood. If they fail, they disgrace their entire
family, and may be disowned and expelled from the country
in shame.

Elderly half-drow who have proved themselves can settle
down and teach the younger ones what they know. Otherwise
they must keep at their chosen profession until they finally are
deemed worthy. In any event, elderly half-drow rarely live long
after age begins to weaken them, since there are always younger
relations hungry for the opportunity to claim the wealth and
station of an aged half-drow.

Outside Dambrath, many half-drow are solitary souls, preferring
to keep their own counsel than sully themselves with
the opinions of others. Other times, they band together into
a self-important group, often bullying those they feel they
can intimidate.

…

Half-Drow Region

While many half-drow native to Dambrath choose that region,
a half-drow character living in more northerly lands is an expatriate
and loner. This region represents a solitary half-drow
native to the woodlands of Cormanthor or the North.

…

Races of Faerun Pg 63 on Half Drow

Half-Drow

Regions: Dambrath, Elf (drow),
Half-drow, the North.

In most lands, half-drow are rare. Since so
many drow are irredeemably evil, they only
mate with humans by way of rape or slavery.
The only exception are the half-drow of the land of Dambrath
in the Shining South, who arise from the centuries-old drow subjugation
of the human folk of that land.

Outside of Dambrath on the surface or that part of southern Faerun, Half-Drow are clearly very rare expatriates on the surface in the north even described as being a “loner”. Noting as much, and noting again the appearance rulings above and “In human society, half-drow are distrusted nearly as much as their full-blooded cousins”, we just do not see enough interaction as base lore with surface NPCs and polities outside of the Dambrath to think they would be viewed by such surface NPCs and polities as distinct from Drow. Notice though, this is the lore base! This can change with RP and also, there are some surface NPCs and polities that don’t have a problem with Drow currently and so won’t have a problem with Half-Drow (enough to ban them I mean) either going about IC.

In game surface polities where Half-Drow will have no problems with NPCs on the surface due to their race alone as of today in terms of being disallowed from the area by NPCs or metagaming or god moding NPCs:

Soubar, Darkhold, and Roaringshore.

With RP initiative that has yet to take place in a commercial sense, Nashkel (and Northern Amn generally outside of Beregost) could be so as well. Server lore explanation below.

Outside of Northern Amn (so not Beregost or Nashkel), say in Crimmor or Athkatla (I understand this is not in the normal game map), Half-Drow would have no problems either with NPCs IC just due to his or her race as long as he or she is following the law, not causing trouble IC, and there for business IC. Northern Amn probably would have been less of an issue too right now for Drow and Half-Drow IC, but over time in our server, Drow NPCs and PCs have attacked Beregost, Nashkel, and also especially Greenest (though it is not in Amn, it is regionally close enough to have been known of by local NPCs in Northern Amn) in the area, and RP has not simmered that fear away yet IC – it some Drow or Half-Drow would like to do so, please shoot the DM Team a player request, one possibility may be to take up an Underdark trading angle with Amn via Northern Amn. Also, Beregost is not culturally Amnian, whereas Nashkel (though it is more “frontier” Amnian) and Greenest (even though Greenest is not in Amn, it arguably has a bunch of Amnian frontier folks living in it) arguably are.

Lands of Intrigue Pg 107 on Amn

Amnians are quite open with and tolerant of races and
creeds with whom they do business. Everyone is a potential
customer or client, and deserves to be treated as such within
the normal bounds of propriety. A richly dressed illithid gets
better treatment than a shabby dwarf any day. Of course, this
openness is guarded, and an Amnian of means always has an
escort of at least two guards. Tolerance for the sake of business
is never overshadowed by fear of the dangers of a deal gone wrong.

In conclusion then, as far as social advantages and disadvantages, Half-Drow have as much access and denied access base-lore wise as full Drow on the surface in NPC polities and around NPCs as a matter of base lore, but more potential to improve that station with IC RP initiatives than full Drow would have. In the UD, Half-Drow just have less access than full Drow in Drow polities period as a general base lore rule.

3.

Half-Drow Comparison with Half-Orcs

Half-Orcs do not have much lore support for being comparable to Half-Drow IC in terms of their treatment by surface IC NPCs and polities. Half-Orcs are specifically mentioned as living in various “civilized” surface polities in Volo’s Guide to the Sword Coast, FRA, Races of Faerun, and Lands of Intrigue, including Iriaebor and Scornubel (Volo’s) and Waterdeep (Races of Faerun). One of the most powerful merchant houses in Amn was in fact lead by a half-orc in canon lore named Lord Rhor Bladesmile and he was even based in the Amnian city of Keczulla, which is overwhelmingly human, 99% human according to Lands of Intrigue. Purskul, a “civilized” Amnian town of about 12,000ish has a large population of half-orcs, about 29% of the total population according to Lands of Intrigue. Of course, Lands of Intrigue also says that Half-Orcs are generally treated as second class citizens in Amn, but they are not outlawed or generally hated, just implicitly looked down upon racially by Amnian human society in many respects.

Compare all of this “civilized” surface polities mention of half-orc residents to the Half-Drow descriptions in Races of Faerun that really only mention Dambrath as such as you get a very different picture canon lore wise, even though, yes, Half-Orcs are clearly viewed as lesser by many surface societies, but nothing to the extent of Races of Faerun on Half-Drow “In human society, half-drow are distrusted nearly as much as their full-blooded cousins.” Instead, Half-Orcs in Races of Faerun are mentioned as “Half-orcs have uphill battles to fight when interacting with most other races, since many are quick to assume that their orcish blood carries with it an inherent savagery and cruelty.” This is a pretty dramatic difference in description. If Half-Orcs were the same to civilized surface polities and NPCs as Half-Drow, then the Half-Orc section would have instead read something along the lines of “In human society, half-orc are distrusted nearly as much as their full-blooded cousins.” It’s not though, so this combined with all the other lore evidence really makes the Half-Orc lore comparison to Half-Drow seem not so compelling.

So whats the amazing difference between a duskier then halfdrow moon elf offspring and a halfdrow that everyone spots at 200 paces?

As stated earlier, halfelves now can be darker then halfdrow.
Along with silvery or white hair.

Yes, it has been used to claim halfdrow origins in Sshamath during roleplay (I believe your chosen term was godmodding, fairly hostile given that this ruling had not been made when similar actions happened on the surface btw).
Dusky elves can no longer claim to be drow and get away with it I suppose?

Or is it one way as usual?

Edit: But I am glad the phrasing of the ruling was off regarding wigs.
So what character creation skin is considered dusky?
You might want to add the obsidian skin, it doesnt exist presently.

/M

Storm Munin wrote:So whats the amazing difference between a duskier then halfdrow moon elf offspring and a halfdrow that everyone spots at 200 paces?

As stated earlier, halfelves now can be darker then halfdrow.
Along with silvery or white hair.

Yes, it has been used to claim halfdrow origins in Sshamath during roleplay (I believe your chosen term was godmodding, fairly hostile given that this ruling had not been made when similar actions happened on the surface btw).
Dusky elves can no longer claim to be drow and get away with it I suppose?

Or is it one way as usual?

Please PM us an occasion where this lead to metagaming or godmoding of NPCs in the Underdark. This could be problematic enough to rule about if this was happening -- just as it was in the Half-Drow case the opposite way. We have not received a report of this being a problem previously at least that I am aware of, but please send us an example if you have it with a screen shot.

Storm Munin wrote:Edit: But I am glad the phrasing of the ruling was off regarding wigs.
So what character creation skin is considered dusky?
You might want to add the obsidian skin, it doesnt exist presently.

/M

I offered some general ideas and posted a picture as an example. If you want us to rule for a specific case just send us a screenshot from character creation. Here are two I just took as an example.

"Obsidian" full Drow.
"Dusky" Half-Drow.

BTW, That color of 'Dusky' you suggest... is not available as a default chooser color. That is the custom content that allows the exact same varieties of color choice that cause the initial issues... all those non-standard color options.

DM Dialectic wrote:

Storm Munin wrote:Edit: But I am glad the phrasing of the ruling was off regarding wigs.
So what character creation skin is considered dusky?
You might want to add the obsidian skin, it doesnt exist presently.

/M

I offered some general ideas and posted a picture as an example. If you want us to rule for a specific case just send us a screenshot from character creation. Here are two I just took as an example.

"Obsidian" full Drow.

Hidden: show

"Dusky" Half-Drow.

Hidden: show

Aeb Ankor wrote:BTW, That color of 'Dusky' you suggest... is not available as a default chooser color. That is the custom content that allows the exact same varieties of color choice that cause the initial issues... all those non-standard color options.

DM Dialectic wrote:

Storm Munin wrote:Edit: But I am glad the phrasing of the ruling was off regarding wigs.
So what character creation skin is considered dusky?
You might want to add the obsidian skin, it doesnt exist presently.

/M

I offered some general ideas and posted a picture as an example. If you want us to rule for a specific case just send us a screenshot from character creation. Here are two I just took as an example.

"Obsidian" full Drow.

Hidden: show

"Dusky" Half-Drow.

Hidden: show

I am not sure what you are saying is the problem then? Could you clarify please as maybe I am not understanding? I was able to roll toons on our server for both colors (dusky example for Half-Drow and obsidian example for full Drow) given as possible examples.

Sigh, I am frustrated by how the staff are making rulings and don't even realize they are part of the problem...

The new half-drow rule is based on a concern that skin colors don't match lore or are used to imitate surface elves. To make the rule, you are actually looking at outside content; that is not required by rule and not everyone on the server is using. This is where the difference in many of the possible outlandish colors come from...

This is a custom mod that you use to add the full color palette:

United Colors
Submitted by:
Submitted by shadow21 on 2014-07-30 09:19.
Last modified:
2014-07-30 09:19
Author:
gaoneng
Old Vault Category:
nwn2ui
Old Vault ID:
43
Game:
NwN2
Category:
GUI
Requirements:
OC
Xp1
Xp2
Language:
English
Tags:
GUI, gaoneng, Hall of Fame

United Colors replaces the limited 18-slot palettes in the character creation screen with a universal 256-slot palette.

That 'Dusky' color (and 238 others) does not exist by default selections for half-drow.

Try rereading the thread now with the knowledge we are not looking at the same colors on our character generation options or in game expectations.

+1

As well I would like to observe that the seated pale slightly dusky blond in the first image presented for us to use in considering skin color by the underlining text is the half drow of the image.
The standing greyish one is the moon elf spawned halfelf.

Id like to note here that my apparently offending toon is a fair bit more tanned btw, created without using any cheat mod but with the game bought defaults.


So what color should we pick, do we cheat and install a mod to be properly black?
What shade of gray to black is enough?

Because to me dusky is anything from that first haze of grey in the sky to that lingering hue of light just before pitch black as sun sets.
As is my toon already are a fair bit dusky within that span, and her hair sure is silvery.


Overall I get the feeling of you (the DM team who handled this) reaching for straws to claim halfdrow should be as dark (and obvious) as you wish, using what is not stated as evidence. Well, d&d lore is not uncommonly unclear to contradictory.
You havent showed any proof of halfdrow being anything but dusky, yet you claim they must be almost black because thats how you see it.

Nor does there seem to be any will to enforce these same kind of colouring rules for the halfelven, by your words because no one has filed a report/complaint yet.
Yet the same unclear picture relate to them and how they at least should mainly be coloured slightly different according to what parented them.
I call that bias and racial discrimination.


/M

Aeb Ankor wrote:Sigh, I am frustrated by how the staff are making rulings and don't even realize they are part of the problem...

The new half-drow rule is based on a concern that skin colors don't match lore or are used to imitate surface elves. To make the rule, you are actually looking at outside content; that is not required by rule and not everyone on the server is using. This is where the difference in many of the possible outlandish colors come from...

This is a custom mod that you use to add the full color palette:

United Colors
Submitted by:
Submitted by shadow21 on 2014-07-30 09:19.
Last modified:
2014-07-30 09:19
Author:
gaoneng
Old Vault Category:
nwn2ui
Old Vault ID:
43
Game:
NwN2
Category:
GUI
Requirements:
OC
Xp1
Xp2
Language:
English
Tags:
GUI, gaoneng, Hall of Fame

United Colors replaces the limited 18-slot palettes in the character creation screen with a universal 256-slot palette.

That 'Dusky' color (and 238 others) does not exist by default selections for half-drow.

Try rereading the thread now with the knowledge we are not looking at the same colors on our character generation options or in game expectations.

I recommend re-reading the reason I posted those two default color options earlier.

Storm Munin wrote:So what character creation skin is considered dusky?
You might want to add the obsidian skin, it doesnt exist presently.

/M

Storm posted that. So, I posted a possible example of "dusky" for Half-Drow at character creation using the default game colors of BGTSCC. He also said that obsidian "doesn't exist presently" for full Drow, so I posted an example of "obsidian" for full Drow at character creation using the default game colors of BGTSCC. I was not responding to a point about United Colors specifically. I was responding to a point claiming that obsidian does not exist in the game period, but it does in the default colors (which do very much exist in game), and to provide a possible example of "dusky", which also exists in the default colors.

No, your dusky example for halfdrow does not exist in the default palet.

No, I was relating to halfdrow about obsidian which this thread is about.
Perhaps I was unclear.

/M

Storm Munin wrote:+1

As well I would like to observe that the seated pale slightly dusky blond in the first image presented for us to use in considering skin color by the underlining text is the half drow of the image.
The standing greyish one is the moon elf spawned halfelf.

Id like to note here that my apparently offending toon is a fair bit more tanned btw, created without using any cheat mod but with the game bought defaults.

Given the pictured standing Half-Drow fits exactly the description given of Half-Drow in the same source book of "Half-drow have dusky skin, silver or white hair, and a broad
range of eye colors", we interpret the standing being with white hair and dusky skin to be the Half-Drow in the picture. We would disagree with your point as a result.

Storm Munin wrote:So what color should we pick, do we cheat and install a mod to be properly black?
What shade of gray to black is enough?

You asked me for an example of a color to pick earlier of "dusky" for Half-Drow in game previously as well.

Storm Munin wrote:So what character creation skin is considered dusky?
You might want to add the obsidian skin, it doesnt exist presently.

/M

I gave you a possible example of dusky for Half-Drow using the default colors of the game. Here it is again:

DM Dialectic wrote:"Dusky" Half-Drow.

Hidden: show

You also previously said that obsidian for use in full Drow was not available in game, so I posted an example of it being available in game using the default colors. Here it is again:

DM Dialectic wrote:"Obsidian" full Drow.

Hidden: show

Storm Munin wrote:Because to me dusky is anything from that first haze of grey in the sky to that lingering hue of light just before pitch black as sun sets.
As is my toon already are a fair bit dusky within that span, and her hair sure is silvery.

PM us a picture then if you are concerned as mentioned before and we would be happy to answer.

Storm Munin wrote:Overall I get the feeling of you (the DM team who handled this) reaching for straws to claim halfdrow should be as dark (and obvious) as you wish, using what is not stated as evidence. Well, d&d lore is not uncommonly unclear to contradictory.
You havent showed any proof of halfdrow being anything but dusky, yet you claim they must be almost black because thats how you see it.

All we have ruled is that Half-Drow should be dusky and we posted a preponderance of lore sources that show as much. Here is the summary of the available lore from earlier:

DM Dialectic wrote:Skin of Half-Drow

We further have four lore sources globally (three FR and one D&D broadly) that all mention “dusky” skin. Two of these FR sources say it as a matter of fact (though one of those is a description of “some” or “one” Half-Drow to be fair), while one says “tend”. The D&D source says it as a matter of fact as well. So, looking at the preponderance of evidence here, we decided on the matter of fact interpretation when combined with a Races of Faerun quote such as this “In human society, half-drow are distrusted nearly as much as their full-blooded cousins”. As, “distrusted nearly as much” implies that Half-Drow are viewed by many surface polities nearly as badly as full Drow, fairly or not, and there must be an implicit reason for this, which we would rule based on the available lore is likely the similarly apparent look (to most surface folks outside of Dambrath) of darker hair and skin (though probably not eyes as most full Drow descriptions are described with red eyes) to NPCs on the surface, though we get there are objective differences on the tone of skin.

One likely reason would that be the two races look indistinct in major ways in human surface societies (even though objectively they are distinct and different, but we are talking subjective impressions, not objective anatomical facts) where most don’t know the racial appearance nuances of Half-Drow versus full Drow such as “dusky” Half-Drow skin versus “obsidian” full Drow skin (see full Drow lore below) or red versus human looking eyes, which really would be the case anywhere outside of Dambrath on the surface – the Underdark is a different matter. Of course, Dambrath is the surface lore exception to Half-Drow and full Drow being confused with each other for the most part according implicitly to Races of Faerun, but that is super far away from our server area and Half-Drow on the surface are implicitly extremely rare outside of the Dambrath area. More on Dambrath lore later.

You claimed otherwise:

"[1.] Overall I get the feeling of you (the DM team who handled this) reaching for straws to claim halfdrow should be as dark (and obvious) as you wish."

We ruled that Half-Drow should be dusky, with what that means left up to good faith judgments of players and an offer to give examples or give an opinion on a specific color PMed to us.

"[2.] using what is not stated as evidence. Well, d&d lore is not uncommonly unclear to contradictory."

If you are making an argument that implying logical things from lore is not allowed in DMing, then we are just going to have to disagree.

"[3.] You havent showed any proof of halfdrow being anything but dusky, yet you claim they must be almost black because thats how you see it."

We showed the logic of our ruling that Half-Drow need to be dusky. We ruled they should be dusky, with what that means left up to good faith judgments of players and an offer to give examples or give an opinion on a specific color PMed to us.

Storm Munin wrote:Nor does there seem to be any will to enforce these same kind of colouring rules for the halfelven, by your words because no one has filed a report/complaint yet.
Yet the same unclear picture relate to them and how they at least should mainly be coloured slightly different according to what parented them.
I call that bias and racial discrimination.


/M

The only reason we even ruled on Half-Drow appearance is because we got numerous reports of problems with metagaming and godmoding on the surface over the years in the absence of ruling on it. As a practical matter, if we made DM rulings on every conceivable theoretical problem (no matter how big or small) we never even got a report of a problem with, we would have literally thousands of DM rulings and no time for much else as DMs. This being said, if there is an actual metagaming or godmoding example that you have with Half-Elves being lore breaking colors in the Underdark, please do send screenshots to us. This is the exact same process beginning and logic we used for this for the Half-Drow appearance ruling. There is nothing biased or discriminatory about such a process and ruling logic against Half-Drow. In fact, if were to make a ruling on Half-Elves without be notified of problems first as you seem to be implicitly suggesting, that is what would then be biased and racially discriminatory (against Half-Elves) in our view, though I am sure you did not intend as much.

Storm Munin wrote:No, your dusky example for halfdrow does not exist in the default palet.

I showed an example of it existing. Storm, I do think we are going in circles now and no new points are being raised here by either of us. I just recommend PMing us a screenshot of the color you are concerned about and asking for an opinion.

Storm Munin wrote:No, I was relating to halfdrow about obsidian which this thread is about.
Perhaps I was unclear.

/M

I am not following then, sorry. The obsidian color example was posted just to show that in the default game colors you can be pick obsidian, as you had said you could not.

The palet you are using is not the default palet, we have been trying to tell you this for a few posts now.
The palet you seem to be using to set a new standard for halfdrow skins is a questionable at best mod.

Edit:
Nowhere have I claimed the DMs cannot make their own decisions, I just expect those decisions to be throughly considered, fair, and based on something other then wants and wishes.

Unless you find a source claiming the first image of haldrow and moon halfelf had a misprint of the underlining text you are incorrect.
A halfelf paletwise now can be darker, bluer and greyer then any halfdrow, and generally moon elves and their spawn are depicted in literature as anything from human peachy with blue tints to full grey or blue.
However you feel it should have been in the picture.
But, indeed, you can choose to do as you please.

/M

Storm Munin wrote:The palet you are using is not the default palet, we have been trying to tell you this for a few posts now.
The palet you seem to be using to set a new standard for halfdrow skins is a questionable at best mod.

I see what the confusion over this is now. I apologize for the unclear communication on my part. I have had the United Colors pallet for so long on my DMing client and honestly thought that pretty much everyone on the server used it playerside that I was referring to it as "default" for BGTSCC (and United Colors have never been ruled a problem to use on our server). You mean the default/vanilla game colors as in default for NWN2 though, yes? You would just like some examples from there to use, yes? I need to hop in client now, but we could send you some later if you like.

Thank you, I am very interested by what you will say after having had a look at it.
Considering a halfelf can be darker/duskier using their default palet.
While a halfdrow is rather pale no matter what you do in comparison.

/M

Edit:
To your knowledge then I have seen plenty of OOC queries and complaints over the years regarding use of the unicolor palet between players ingame, even when such have not been used by the more or less baffled OOC target.
TBH I am actually surprised we havent had more Szarkai on the server due to it.