Page 2 of 4
Re: fighter 30?
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:10 pm
by Steve
Blackman D wrote:true strike is only suppose to apply to one attack, thats why it has an odd duration in nwn
when you cast it, it takes up the duration of the round you cast and then you are suppose to get the first attack of the next round if you attack right away... so if you are getting the bonus for two attacks then you are getting an extra...
I personally wouldn't mind this if, for the next single attack roll, it was at the highest bab for the character.
But unlike PnP, can this be counted upon? As it works now, then, one would have to time the feat/spell use just right, because if I'm reading the responses right, it doesn't take a full round to cast, and thus that single attack roll could apply to the lowest BAB?!!
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:39 pm
by Theodore01
Just make the feat instantly activated.
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:04 pm
by Blackman D
Steve wrote:I personally wouldn't mind this if, for the next single attack roll, it was at the highest bab for the character.
But unlike PnP, can this be counted upon? As it works now, then, one would have to time the feat/spell use just right, because if I'm reading the responses right, it doesn't take a full round to cast, and thus that single attack roll could apply to the lowest BAB?!!
well for those that cast it yes, but i suppose thats the issue with the feat?
it would probably be better if there was a way to just make it apply to the next attack with no rush limit, in pnp its just the next attack but there is no duration however in nwn you have to use it and hurry up and attack, tho then again there will probably be issues doing it that way also
Re: fighter 30?
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:20 am
by Steve
Theodore01 wrote:Just make the feat instantly activated.
Also an option, though it would still require the Player to click the hotbar at exactly your last attack flurry. And, it is common that flurry-lag will cancel out the queue you've setup for you toon.
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:47 am
by Vogar Eol
Well Steve, do you find it as humorous as I do that PnP is being brought up?
The broken feat only works with the first attack or two... so it's accidentally mirroring PnP. Obviously the caster Truestrike is OP and we need to nerf it to match PnP and work for only the first attack. You know, because Truestrike sees so much use!
I'm being facetious, but that really wasn't the way I expected this to go. Got to love this place, lol.
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:02 am
by chad878262
Vogar Eol wrote:Well Steve, do you find it as humorous as I do that PnP is being brought up?
The broken feat only works with the first attack or two... so it's accidentally mirroring PnP. Obviously the caster Truestrike is OP and we need to nerf it to match PnP and work for only the first attack. You know, because Truestrike sees so much use!
I'm being facetious, but that really wasn't the way I expected this to go. Got to love this place, lol.
When something is not custom to the engine or some form of home brew we always start with pnp as a base. After that the first question is not "will it be op" but instead, is there some class that could use help and would be helped by such a change. There are limited resources to make changes and generally casters aren't in the mix. That said Valefort has commented so that is the first step, but I don't see calling out BMD, who is trying to be helpful and provide information as productive to detailing why a change is needed. IMO the more productive path would be to discuss if it's the spell that you'd like changed in its entirety or is it just the DS activated ability? Who would such a suggested change help? Why do they need help? Perhaps as important as anything, would someone putting in the effort to make such a change actually see use/be appreciated by a decent number of players?
Just some advice before this goes down the path of so many recent threads where folks clamor for a change and then blow up at what is proposed/created.
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:06 am
by Steve
Description
True Strike gives the caster insight to their next attack resulting in a +20 bonus to their next attack roll.
Gameplay Notes
This spell lasts 9 seconds as opposed to the in-game description of "one attack". The reason for this is that it takes 3 seconds to cast this spell - taking affect on the 2nd 3 seconds of the round. Since the spellcaster would not actually be able to attack in the same round because of the spell cool-down timer, this leaves 6 seconds (one full round) to actually make a physical attack. The physical attack is performed the round after this spell is cast.
Some people believe this effect to be a bug because it differs from the PnP version of the spell. However, this is by design because the game's engine is not set up for a 1 attack only effect. Instead, the script grants the caster the +20 bonus for the equivalent of 1 round of physical attacks.
Note that, unlike the PnP version of the spell, the NWN2 version has no effect on bypassing concealment. Thus, the caster affected by this spell can still miss the target due to it being concealed.
Lastly, the PnP version of this spell does not require a somatic component. While in NWN2 the description does say that it requires a somatic component, this is a description bug. If cast in game with 100% spell casting failure (as with Full Plate, Tower Shield, Stone Body), the spell does not fail.
Problem is, I never see True Strike apply to the entire following round.
I'll load up my Dragonslayer build and test it out now.
And to add: the Dragonslayer PrC is pretty AWESOME the way it is, but with many PrCs, they have some Feat granting that is or does not "really" add anything to the play of the Build, because of limited use, or whatever. Would / should it be that every detail is awesome? Of course it should! But I never expect that, myself.
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:21 am
by Valefort
It likely just needs +3 seconds duration because of the way it is cast to make it the same as true strike spell.
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:29 am
by chad878262
To that point, leaving the spell as is, but making the DS ability instantly activated seems a viable solution, actually giving the DS (if clicked perfectly) a round and a half of having the capped bonus to attack. My guess is it would be a fairly easy change, and they only get it twice per day essentially giving them a boss/pvp nova ability. Helps Melee DS's as well as Caster DS's. The mitigating factor to such a change would be the fact that timing it perfectly in most cases will be difficult and could have similar issues to other melee activated abilities with an attack flurry cancelling the action or the activation interrupting the flurry and losing some of the attacks with bonus while the attack re-initializes. Is this the type of change you'd be looking for or something else? Are there any other DS players that have different idea's to bring, or non-DS players that would have concern about them having such a Nova ability? It certainly would make IPA easy to land for 5-7 attacks (depending on haste and BAB). If you come up with a specific request as to what you would like changed regarding the spell and/or ability I can post a link in QC to see if there are any concerns with it.
EDIT: or what Valefort said...
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:47 am
by Steve
I just tested the True Strike / Dragonslayer feat a few times.
In all instances, the casting of the feat interrupts the melee fight, in such a way that the next attack roll is often queued up behind the mobs number of attacks, and since True Strike is a on timer, and not on a wait-until-next-round-shows-up-queue, the immediate following attack sequence—and my character has 6 attacks per round via Divine Power
—only the first 2 or first flurry will utilize True Strike.
I could never get the True Strike +20 to last an entire round of combat. And I tried a few options, but yeah, I'm not the most skilled player! lol.
So, making it instant would be unbelievably awesome if it doesn't make the feat OP, and having it last 12 seconds, would probably allow for the next attack sequence to actually complete with the +20 bonus.
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:53 am
by Vogar Eol
Like Steve said, I've played with it extensively too now. Can confirm his results.
I really don't care if it's made instant, or if the spell had its duration extended by 3 seconds. The former allows less time standing around taking damage. The later basically allows you to do nothing for 1 round while activating.
I'd personally prefer the former, and believe so would spell casters. It's also not requiring a deviation from the Truestrike script, just the activation meathod. After all, it does last exactly 9 seconds now... I timed it on the character sheet. It's just that you can't re-attack for 6 seconds or so.
//edit: I'm going to alter it in Jegs and play with it both ways this weekend.
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:27 pm
by Blackman D
Steve wrote:This spell lasts 9 seconds as opposed to the in-game description of "one attack". The reason for this is that it takes 3 seconds to cast this spell - taking affect on the 2nd 3 seconds of the round. Since the spellcaster would not actually be able to attack in the same round because of the spell cool-down timer, this leaves 6 seconds (one full round) to actually make a physical attack. The physical attack is performed the round after this spell is cast.
well if this is the case then im not sure why they thought that would have worked?
it takes 3 secs to cast a spell yes, but a round is 6 secs long leaving you only 3 secs to attack and not 6 since you cant attack the same round you cast, even if you for whatever reason waste quicken spell on it you would only have the 3 secs, for quicken you would have to quicken another spell first then true strike to use the last 3 secs of the round to get the 6 of the next
either way, intentionally giving +20 for an entire round seems excessive but hey, my assassins would love it
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:45 pm
by Vogar Eol
For the sake of completeness, it should be pointed out the +20 attack hits cap usually at about +16 or even much less. It uses the same bonus type as many spells and abilities, and does not stack with them.
I really don't find this very powerful simply due to the nature of the HP so many things here have. Unless you are a IPA Ranger/FB with Favored Power Attack, and able to hit Dragons for +85 damage with a Greataxe (+24 IPA, x3 FPA, +10 magical vs dragon, +4 enhancement = 86dmg) .... I really don't see it doing much.
*shrugs, then goes to make a dwarf ranger/FB/WM/Dragonslayer*
///edit: Oh, the spell works for a full round of attacks cast from the assassin spellbook. Haven't seen any cast it before Death Attack though. Wizards, Sorcerers... etc, get a full round buff too casting it normally. Just for clarity, only the Feat spell-like ability buffs for less then a full round. I'm not emotionally invested, just seeing this as a Dragonslayer bug.
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:46 pm
by Asmodea
Blackman D wrote:
either way, intentionally giving +20 for an entire round seems excessive but hey, my assassins would love it
This is what the spell does and has always done.
Re: Truestrike on Dragonslayer
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:44 pm
by Blackman D
Vogar Eol wrote:I really don't find this very powerful simply due to the nature of the HP so many things here have.
more or less why im not overly concerned with it yes
Asmodea wrote:
This is what the spell does and has always done.
never noticed before, tho also not one that eye balls the combat log hard
that being said the only reasonable "fix" in the case of DS would probably be making their feat instant, since extending the spell would likely extend it for everyone