Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

7threalm wrote:or put at 50% or 30% movement penatly on the skeletons in the graveyard.

I went in there it it spawn like 6 of them.. was not good

I know the spawn rate was up but the skeletons are to fast

There is also a level 3 wizard spawn in the graveyard (not the caves, the Graveyard itself) now that can wipe an entire lowbie party (casts magic missile, daze, scare, mirror image, Melf's acid arrow and combust). Not fun.

trogers2 wrote: These first two reasons worry me and I think it would be healthy if we come up with some ideas to help make new players feel welcome I have drafted some ideas below but would be greatful if you guys could throw some ideas forward as well.

To make new players feel welcome you need to have a lot of people that hang around starting areas. All starting areas. The server has huge number of areas, and because of that number of PC characters feels very low even at full population (you'll probably need few hundred players to make the server feel more populated). Even for a non-newbiew "log on, play for 2 hours without meeting anybody you can interact with" is a very common experience.

Sigil is much better designed in comparison - because there's only ONE hub, and when you start the game, you start straight at the hub.

On bgtsc the closest thing to a hub is FAI, and level 1 character usually will get murdered on the way there.

7threalm wrote:or put at 50% or 30% movement penatly on the skeletons in the graveyard.

Also, graveyard is a horrible place to level up for a newbie. It is one area where you definitely shouldn't ever go. Skeletons and undead have damage resistence, and require weapon swtiching. Yet for some reason everybody will run to the graveyard and try to level up there. There are much better areas - bandit caves, farmlands north (not sure if hostile spawns are still there), road to the river, etc. They have lower cr than kobold ruins and enemies are largely mundane, without damage resistances. Not to mention that for non-ecl race the best idea would be to get the first level withotu even leaving the city.

These are some great ideas! I have a warehouse module that I can fix up once I'm done with my current project that can be used as a "Rats in the Warehouse" quest for those who like that kind of thing.. That way they have an alternative to the graveyard that will also keep them in the city and relatively safe for a couple of levels, plus earn some coin for Rat Hides.

I'm still waiting to hear on an approval for this.

NegInfinity wrote:
Sigil is much better designed in comparison - because there's only ONE hub, and when you start the game, you start straight at the hub.

Not to turn this into a "that other server" thread but I logged onto Sigil and ROT the same day I logged on to BGTSCC which was not too long ago.

ROT is just radically different and supports a much more grindy / loot based game. That is not for me. I do however, love Planescape as a setting. That being said, sight unseen I logged on the first time with a level 1 character and created. Wait for it... wait for it... a gold dragon.

A gold what?! And I ran down into the little Planescape sewer to beat up rats and there was ANOTHER dragon there. A dragon... fighting rats. That even for planescape is absurdly comical I just couldn't wrap my mind around it. I understand Planescape is a very bizarre place full of oddities but to unbridle dragons on the world at level ONE from players who possibly have no concept of the lore is laughably odd. Ditto for illithid and all the other wacky races there.

NegInfinity wrote: Skeletons and undead have damage resistence, and require weapon swtiching. Yet for some reason everybody will run to the graveyard and try to level up there. .

Some reason... when you arrive you are fired out into the BG Farmlands. The first thing you see is a wizard that says he will pay you for undead parts just meters away from where you arrive. Then you see a graveyard. You with me? But you are right about the DR on the monsters there. Like another poster I started about 2 months ago now with 3, I'm the only one left.

That graveyard believe it or not, killed the spirit of one of the players. He is in there wacking away at undead with DR/5 and was like "really with this at level 1?". A few deaths later and then a quick trip into the necromancer's cave to be burned alive in a single attack and the Uninstall button was next. I don't blame him. Needlessly punitive is the phrase that comes to mind.

Secondly, I have gotten two tells since I've been here which isn't long saying this same thing when I was in the weapons shop in BG proper. "Where does one go to just get a normal weapon here? I cannot afford any of this stuff"

That Maltz has no mundane gear is another supreme oddity much like the gold dragon characters free to all in Sigil. I am seeing with a very fresh set of eyes on these various places and these things jumped out at once. The other friend I started with played the "hunt for a mundane weapon" game for a bit, found one, walked a map or so out from the farmsa and was neatly incinerated in the fields of the dead a few times. Uninstall #2

The difficulty spikes are rather insane and I say this now having been the only one who has stuck it out. There are at least half a dozen places I can think of in the early game where you are just zipping along and some mob will spawn that is SO much more powerful than the zone should have. Blam, you are in fugue and just got some of your real life time erased. Often, with almost no warning about why you were just one-shotted. This is an enthusiasm killer of the highest order.

When I'm seeing monsters that should be CR3-5 rolling dice with +15 to hit something is just way way out of whack. I get that this is a very old server so things are skewed towards veteran players but CR 3 is CR 3 is CR 3, or at least should be. I don't even bother memorizing and spells that are "one and done" DC check type spells because the saving throws are so absurdly high for each monster its a waste of a spell slot. So basically half the spell list may as well be erased. Why take a chance to hold monster when I'm fairly sure that CR5 monster has proably +10 or more extra than what he should have? May as well dump the flame strike on him and call it a day, innit?

All the being said, this is meant as constructive criticism as I still am here. I've found BG suits my needs the best of what is still available. The difficulty level is skewed VERY high for a server that is basically claiming "RP". I know DnD well so can powergame / metagame with the best of them and basically I've had to do that as a new player. I just did all this recently as a very new player so I'm just going stream of consciousness with the things I've observed. The community however by and large, kicks ass.

One pet peeve of mine though and this is just -me- I am not the RP police though it seems some people wish to be. The other poster saying everyone balls through the dungeons like a crazy person has not been my experience whatsoever. It has been 100% the opposite of that.
Everyone, everywhere, walks... very... slowly. AT ALL TIMES. That again is just so illogical to me like the gold dragon beating up sewer rats. Walking slow doesn't make you a good roleplayer, it just makes you dinner for an animal or a monster. I've literally watched people saunter in hilarious places like Boareskyr Bridge or Trade Way being mobbed by creatures just hammering away. Granted, these people are likely older players so there is no chance in hell those creatures will scratch them but from an outsider POV I find it hilarious and always laugh.

If I'm 20th level and beetles are chasing me, guess what? I'm running. Whether I can fell them all in a single axe swipe is not the relevant point. What my character would actually do is. So let me say it again. Walking in inappropriate places doesn't make you a good roleplayer, it just makes you a snail with bite marks in you.

Good post Darkwind. My experience was also like that, the first character I made was a drow sorcerer. Getting 6000xp when you can barely hit a bat? I abandoned the server and didn’t look back for a long time.

If the idea was just to create a very difficult server, then it would be understandable. But the server really isn’t that difficult, it’s just that the first levels are hardest. My level 30 dies to nothing but bosses, if I try to solo them. I think it’s too easy to forget how hard it is when you have nothing and know nothing. Not everyone is comfortable asking for help in a new community either.

The other poster saying everyone balls through the dungeons like a crazy person has not been my experience whatsoever. It has been 100% the opposite of that.

I could very well be wrong, my experience in dungeons and grinding areas is limited. Also, for the record, I think people running when there are actually enemies attacking them is completely realistic. But pausing between fights to talk, comment, or explore the room is nice. At least, I think it is.

Even if people run all the way through the dungeon never stopping, that's fine too. My point was only that if that was all I found I would have quit to go play Path of Exile instead.

Darkwind wrote:

Hidden: show

Some reason... when you arrive you are fired out into the BG Farmlands. The first thing you see is a wizard that says he will pay you for undead parts just meters away from where you arrive. Then you see a graveyard. You with me? But you are right about the DR on the monsters there. Like another poster I started about 2 months ago now with 3, I'm the only one left.

That graveyard believe it or not, killed the spirit of one of the players. He is in there wacking away at undead with DR/5 and was like "really with this at level 1?". A few deaths later and then a quick trip into the necromancer's cave to be burned alive in a single attack and the Uninstall button was next. I don't blame him. Needlessly punitive is the phrase that comes to mind.

Secondly, I have gotten two tells since I've been here which isn't long saying this same thing when I was in the weapons shop in BG proper. "Where does one go to just get a normal weapon here? I cannot afford any of this stuff"

That Maltz has no mundane gear is another supreme oddity much like the gold dragon characters free to all in Sigil. I am seeing with a very fresh set of eyes on these various places and these things jumped out at once. The other friend I started with played the "hunt for a mundane weapon" game for a bit, found one, walked a map or so out from the farmsa and was neatly incinerated in the fields of the dead a few times. Uninstall #2

The difficulty spikes are rather insane and I say this now having been the only one who has stuck it out. There are at least half a dozen places I can think of in the early game where you are just zipping along and some mob will spawn that is SO much more powerful than the zone should have. Blam, you are in fugue and just got some of your real life time erased. Often, with almost no warning about why you were just one-shotted. This is an enthusiasm killer of the highest order.

When I'm seeing monsters that should be CR3-5 rolling dice with +15 to hit something is just way way out of whack. I get that this is a very old server so things are skewed towards veteran players but CR 3 is CR 3 is CR 3, or at least should be. I don't even bother memorizing and spells that are "one and done" DC check type spells because the saving throws are so absurdly high for each monster its a waste of a spell slot. So basically half the spell list may as well be erased. Why take a chance to hold monster when I'm fairly sure that CR5 monster has proably +10 or more extra than what he should have? May as well dump the flame strike on him and call it a day, innit?

All the being said, this is meant as constructive criticism as I still am here. I've found BG suits my needs the best of what is still available. The difficulty level is skewed VERY high for a server that is basically claiming "RP". I know DnD well so can powergame / metagame with the best of them and basically I've had to do that as a new player. I just did all this recently as a very new player so I'm just going stream of consciousness with the things I've observed. The community however by and large, kicks ass.

One pet peeve of mine though and this is just -me- I am not the RP police though it seems some people wish to be. The other poster saying everyone balls through the dungeons like a crazy person has not been my experience whatsoever. It has been 100% the opposite of that.
Everyone, everywhere, walks... very... slowly. AT ALL TIMES. That again is just so illogical to me like the gold dragon beating up sewer rats. Walking slow doesn't make you a good roleplayer, it just makes you dinner for an animal or a monster. I've literally watched people saunter in hilarious places like Boareskyr Bridge or Trade Way being mobbed by creatures just hammering away. Granted, these people are likely older players so there is no chance in hell those creatures will scratch them but from an outsider POV I find it hilarious and always laugh.

If I'm 20th level and beetles are chasing me, guess what? I'm running. Whether I can fell them all in a single axe swipe is not the relevant point. What my character would actually do is. So let me say it again. Walking in inappropriate places doesn't make you a good roleplayer, it just makes you a snail with bite marks in you.

A lot of good points in this thread. I won't comment on all of them, but I want to talk a bit about the difficulty in the early levels vs. later levels... It's a tough call in my opinion, you only get one first time right? Overall I think my first character was memorable and fun all the way from 1-30, but I certainly remember a LOT of frustration all the way through. Make it too easy and a lot of those firsts won't have nearly the same sense of accomplishment, but at the same time there is a lot of merit in this and other posts calling out 1 in X players staying with the server longer than a few weeks.

Often times there are conversations among the seasoned players about how you can get from 1-10 in a week and that may be true, if you have the time and put in the hours to do so. However, that is due more to meta-knowledge as well as understanding the lower level build types that can level the fastest, what potions/scrolls to buy and exactly what area to go for the highest XP rate with the least danger. Frankly, I don't see how making the graveyard and some other lower level areas a bit less difficult would negatively impact the more seasoned players and if it improves the experience of those who are first trying out the server then that's all for the better.

I also think adding the meta-information for CR Rating on all area transitions would be a good change. However, I am not sure how difficult that is, so I would suggest starting with BG areas and Soubar areas and then moving out from there. I realize some people don't like this meta-knowledge, but simple fact is this is an old game and players that have been here already know what they need to take on any given map. A CR rating doesn't tell you if the mobs have dispels/breaches/IGMS/specific energy damage/resistances, etc. and it at least helps make sure a level 4 character isn't trying to make it from FAI to Beregost alone for the first time, trying to get the stock for Maltz (I remember that experience vividly!)

With regard to running through dungeons, I would echo the previous poster that it depends on the character, as well as the situation. It is one thing to run to/from an enemy when spotted. It is another to run through a dungeon in full plate at all times... My earlier post was only meant to call out that there is (or can be) room for stealth characters to scout, look for and remove traps, as well as for the party to plan a coordinated attack, especially in a room with multiple enemies or a boss, instead of just playing follow the leader on a dead sprint from the start to the end of a given dungeon/area. Now, if you are alone or with a full group who've all been there before then in general, dead sprint it is. However, when with newbies or those attempting to slow down and RP a bit I think there is room to respect that. Now, if they continue walking and talking, ignoring the kobold attempting in vain to poke them in the rear end, it's fair to turn the RP around.... "Are you nuts man!?!?!?! That vermin is trying to STAB YOU, DEFEND YOURSELF!" or whatever...

Darkwind wrote:If I'm 20th level and beetles are chasing me, guess what? I'm running. Whether I can fell them all in a single axe swipe is not the relevant point. What my character would actually do is. So let me say it again. Walking in inappropriate places doesn't make you a good roleplayer, it just makes you a snail with bite marks in you.

Pretty tricky to keep an eye on your surroundings or your allies if you're running all the time, imo. Especially if you might be running into a gas trap. If you're being chased, well that's different. I think it's more about keeping the group together and giving people a chance to contribute. Personally I've experienced both types of group since I joined and prefer people taking it slow.

Edit: Except as chad points out above, when you all know the dungeon like the back of your hand it's just for loot.

Would it be easy to add a conversation or even a sign post by the caravan stop saying "basic merchants thataway ---->" and then a conversation with the knights by the graveyard saying you should probably bring a blunt weapon, maybe change the CR rating on the transition to 2? Also, I think Maltz should warn you that the road to Beregost is dangerous to travel alone, and that people by the docks were offering work that should be seen to first, maybe? The cleric of Illmater should also probably warn you about the difficulty of the Saughin - picking berries sounds misleadingly easy, imho. The Blade and Stars mugging quest is level restricted to 5, yet is considerably easier than the island and the road north of Beregost.

Darkwind wrote: A gold what?! And I ran down into the little Planescape sewer to beat up rats and there was ANOTHER dragon there. A dragon... fighting rats.

I do not remember normal rats on sigil. You have cranium rats and wererats. There were bats, but the inn with the bats got blown up few weeks ago and is now gone.

Aside from dragon-related silliness, the experience is significantly better.

Bgtscc with 60 people online feels emptier than sigil with 15 people playing. Always been this way. You can also murder celestial paladins en masse on sigil and takes their stuff. Going to a good aligned plane and soaing the ground in blood of celestials always brings smile to the face of evil-aligned chars.

Darkwind wrote: Some reason... when you arrive you are fired out into the BG Farmlands.

Except that you aren't fired out into the farmlands.
On the starting screen you have a choice to spawn at the port, to spawn near a caravan, or to spawn into soubar. I usually start at the port.

In a port the two nearest things are npc quest giver, and someone who introduces you to the server and hints at maltz quest. In the farmlands, npc standing near caravan master has similar lines, and the first things you see is that npc and two farmers. And soubar has inn and bunch of npcs that can be talked to and give you quests. The necrophi... I mean the "mage" with unhealthy interest in undead in farmlands is hiding under a tent on the other end of the map the closest things to you are farmer with a rat, an npc with intro, and city entrance gate.

So, with all that in mind, I have no idea why people are so damn attracted to the graveyard. It is the worst place to try to level for anyone who is not a cleric with a club.

---edit--

IF anything, one HUGE issue with BG that makes people quit is getting full set of equipment. For a new player getting a full set of +3 gear can easily take few months, and half of those items aren't even in the shops. Meaning to get a +3 amulet you need to know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who can sell the damn thing. While the merchants have higher amount of gold (on sigil you get 300gp per item max from any npc), items barely drop, and there are no bags of holding to carry heavy stuff on low-strength characters. Selling rare stuff require interaction with maltz and forum sections, which are as unimmersive as it gets because rather than interacting with characters IG you need to interact with a message board.

Highlighting quest givers would be really handy, and I'd love it, though until then it doesn't hurt to talk to every NPC with a name.

Going places, roleplaying, and finding a group of people to prop you up really helps you get on your feet and stick around. It doesn't matter if your character's a social bee or the grumpiest grouch known to man as long as you express your character well in a way that's interesting and encourages other characters to interact with you.

Source? Me as a nobody player at that time, playing a mute and illiterate snowflakiest snowflake with horrible social issues and a class combination really badly suited for grinding. I don't recommend it for new players, by the way.

Is it selfish? Probably, but you can return the favour and help others when you're no longer a newbie, and that a story's all about your character's growth doesn't necessarily mean it's less important or earthshaking than a big epic plot spanning the length of the Sword Coast.

/2 cents

Probably agreeing with some points spoken and unspoken already.

But I wouldn't want to see this become so easy like WoW or any other OMMRPG out there. Where you:
Create toon
Spawn in
Get first quest
Finish first quest
Move to next quest
.... rinse wash repeat with guided arrows , markers etc pointing the way for the next umpteen hours.

While I do agree, anyone not accustomed to DnD BG/NWN/ OnPWServers would have a hard time figuring out 'what' to do, let alone what Proper Roleplay is in character form.

Perhaps a tutorial area/zone? To learn the basics. Bit of lore, mostly OOC learnings (What RP talk is, walk, dont run, rules of cities, how to treat NPCs in general, farming xp vs Roleplay and many other key topics). But purely optional on character creation (as those making alts won't neccessarily want to go through it again).
I know Engines of Ascension have a great Tutorial area for new characters, because its a complex system they have developed and not what most expect when they log in. And they've linked it with how your character 'arrives' into the world.

Just another thought.

Attach a CR rating to all areas.

Vartigy wrote:Perhaps a tutorial area/zone? To learn the basics. Bit of lore, mostly OOC learnings (What RP talk is, walk, dont run, rules of cities, how to treat NPCs in general, farming xp vs Roleplay and many other key topics). But purely optional on character creation (as those making alts won't neccessarily want to go through it again).
I know Engines of Ascension have a great Tutorial area for new characters, because its a complex system they have developed and not what most expect when they log in. And they've linked it with how your character 'arrives' into the world.

We are trying to trim down lesser used areas to help with the server stability so adding new training zones might not be the best allocation of resources. However, some of these ideas could possibly be provided via popups if someone selects new player=yes or something like that. issue is that written stuff is available on the forums and in game items that every PC starts with, but not everyone has the patience to read...

Nachti wrote: Attach a CR rating to all areas.

I agree this would probably have the best benefit considering it would only require someone to add a "CRXX" to transitions that are currently missing them.

chad878262 wrote: We are trying to trim down lesser used areas to help with the server stability so adding new training zones might not be the best allocation of resources. However, some of these ideas could possibly be provided via popups if someone selects new player=yes or something like that. issue is that written stuff is available on the forums and in game items that every PC starts with, but not everyone has the patience to read...

Yeh that's the risk with the areas/resources. And like you said, if you put in a whole heap of sign boards, no one will read it. Make a whole heap of mistakes (which is fine to a certain extent) in game and claim ignorance.

The only reason I suggested an area, is that if done well, it can teach someone the server, via actually 'playing' out a scenario where they learn all the quirks that we think are needed for a solid foundation. (although exactly that what is... :S )

Probably the best solution is those with knowledge, try and have alot of patience and leeway and offer casual advice ICly and OOCly where they feel it will be recieved kindly.