Divine Power

[dedude]

Things to consider when you compare divine power with Tenser's:

1) DP boost BAB, meaning you get extra attacks per round (this is HUUUGE), Tenser's only boost AB
2) DP is +6 str, meaning +2 above your bulls. Tenser's str doesn't help if you have bulls.
3) ASF only on Tenser's
4) DP is lvl 3 and 4 depending on domain, that's alot of extended DP. Tenser's is lvl 6.

There is absolutely no contest, DP is superior in every way, and is by far the best gish spell in the game.

[ValerieJean]

Another thing I forgot, remember that a warrior cleric rellys on wards. What happens when it get dispelled?

You right! The cleric dies!

I don't find this completely true. That could be said for Wizards/Sorcs/anyone who relies on wards/spells to be honest. At least with the cleric you can wear heavy armor and possibly have a chance with your AC where as your robe mage who is out of spells may not.

[ginsu]

An EK gish have 60AC and above + 9 spells + epic spells

A naked str based bard can solo a Balor without to much effort.

40 str fighter / frenzied berseker is more powerfull one on one (Ceifador)

Shadow Shaman can tank a white dragon but not a cleric or a FS

So...

Whats the big deal with divine power?

[ginsu]

I forgot a good one:

Hierophant+Bloodmage+shadow shaman can reach CL 35 having 75 AC with epic spells.

If those who are looking for Divine Power as something "so much OP oh my god", why not pick better targets? hehe

[Vogar Eol]

These kinds of posts come up every year or so. The Cleric spell list has had many of its features paired back over time. Granted, everyone got new spells with additions over the years too. Still:

1. Word of Faith doesn't automatically blind, but now has a will save.
2. Battletide is half as effective a buff as vanilla, and the debuff now has a will save. No free extra attack. One argument for this (along with haste) was Divine Power.
3. Time Domain removed. One argument on why this was needed was Divine Power.
4. Regeneration changes and Greater Restoration Changes.
5. Nightshield removed (was more useful for divines, but also hurt arcanes)
6. Living Undeath removed.
7. Casting Resurrection is no longer a one round action.
8. Conviction no longer stacks with other resistance line of spells.

I'm not saying these changes didn't need to be done. Simply that they have been done to the vanilla game for one reason or another. There was also talk very recently of adding a 10,000 gold and/or one diamond cost to Resurrection. There was a 30 page topic about removing or gutting out FvS. There have been many many many of these sort of topics over the years.

Will changing Divine Power encourage people to play here instead of Sigil, Haven, or elsewhere? Does hurting the cleric spell list help your cleric buddy support your party in difficult events / zones / battles?

The grass is always greener on the other side. Both sides take for granted what they have, and envy what the other side has that they don't. Just remember you're free to cross the fence and try it. Heck, play on both the Arcane and the Divine sides of the fence.

This server has been around a long time, and I hope it stays successful for a long time to come. I just don't see this as anything but the semi-quarterly stirring of the pot. Heck, I'll even vote for letting Arcane Gishes cast during Tenser's if it means these type of topics stop coming up. It won't stop these topics though. It will be something else in six months.

[Zethrenx99]

Will changing Divine Power encourage people to play here instead of Sigil, Haven, or elsewhere? Does hurting the cleric spell list help your cleric buddy support your party in difficult events / zones / battles?

Sigil changed DP to what I had posted, was also my idea there >.>.

[Vogar Eol]

I'm not suggesting people go play on Sigil or Haven.

[Calodan]

Will changing Divine Power encourage people to play here instead of Sigil, Haven, or elsewhere? Does hurting the cleric spell list help your cleric buddy support your party in difficult events / zones / battles?

Sigil changed DP to what I had posted, was also my idea there >.>.

Yet here you are...........

[AC81]

Divine power is OP'd and certainly MUCH better than Tenser's, however FS's are a protected species, so I doubt anything will happen.
Question: Is DP breachable? How many divine spells are breachable? Last I saw not many were. Maybe this is a change that's needed?

[izzul]

1. Word of Faith doesn't automatically blind, but now has a will save.
2. Battletide is half as effective a buff as vanilla, and the debuff now has a will save. No free extra attack. One argument for this (along with haste) was Divine Power.
3. Time Domain removed. One argument on why this was needed was Divine Power.
4. Regeneration changes and Greater Restoration Changes.
5. Nightshield removed (was more useful for divines, but also hurt arcanes)
6. Living Undeath removed.
7. Casting Resurrection is no longer a one round action.
8. Conviction no longer stacks with other resistance line of spells.

should nerf 8 things on other gish class too before coming towards FS/Cleric

[Calodan]

1. Word of Faith doesn't automatically blind, but now has a will save.
2. Battletide is half as effective a buff as vanilla, and the debuff now has a will save. No free extra attack. One argument for this (along with haste) was Divine Power.
3. Time Domain removed. One argument on why this was needed was Divine Power.
4. Regeneration changes and Greater Restoration Changes.
5. Nightshield removed (was more useful for divines, but also hurt arcanes)
6. Living Undeath removed.
7. Casting Resurrection is no longer a one round action.
8. Conviction no longer stacks with other resistance line of spells.

should nerf 8 things on other gish class too before coming towards FS/Cleric

Quoted for truth right here. Been witch hunting FvS and Clerics for awhile now time to go after the arcane spells that are OP. Get off my back monkeys!!

[Storm Munin]

Do not touch DP, make DC power matter to all caster classes/spells.

Suffering from selecting wis8 on an FvS or cha8 on a Warlock should happen.
All the OP STR boosted caster builds should disappear over night.

Same could be argued for noncaster classes btw, its silly that the most play durable type of rogue (wo caster levels) are CONers.

/M

[Tsidkenu]

You want to nerf Divine Power? Make its duration tied to spell DC, 1 round per 2 or 3 DC point the caster has, sorta like how the wizard spell Foresight is. FS are instantly nerfed by this (they tend to tank wisdom to negative) while Wisdom clerics can still use extended DP for a decent duration, but that means they won't have EDM, or if they do, their Divine Power spell will be quite inhibited by their lower base wisdom score.

An 8 (-1) Wis FS will have (10 base + 4 spell level -1 wisdom = 13/2) = 6 rounds, 12 extended.

A 30 (+10) Wis cleric with Epic Spell Focus Evocation will have (10 base +4 spell level +10 wisdom +3 epic spell focus =27/2) = 13 rounds, 26 extended.

An EDM cleric with 19 (+4) wis will have (10 base +4 spell level +4 wisdom = 18/2) 9 rounds, 18 extended.

[chad878262]

You want to nerf Divine Power? Make its duration tied to spell DC, 1 round per 2 or 3 DC point the caster has, sorta like how the wizard spell Foresight is. FS are instantly nerfed by this (they tend to tank wisdom to negative) while Wisdom clerics can still use extended DP for a decent duration, but that means they won't have EDM, or if they do, their Divine Power spell will be quite inhibited by their lower base wisdom score.

An 8 (-1) Wis FS will have (10 base + 4 spell level -1 wisdom = 13/2) = 6 rounds, 12 extended.

A 30 (+10) Wis cleric with Epic Spell Focus Evocation will have (10 base +4 spell level +10 wisdom +3 epic spell focus =27/2) = 13 rounds, 26 extended.

An EDM cleric with 19 (+4) wis will have (10 base +4 spell level +4 wisdom = 18/2) 9 rounds, 18 extended.

I would go so far as to just make the duration = 1 round / DC. Considering today it lasts 30 rounds, 60 extended for a CL30 caster even at 1 round / DC the duration would be shorter for the high WIS cleric example you showed, which sacrifices EDM and STR. Interesting compromise. But honestly I don't see this as something that would be priority. I really like this suggestion though.

[Vogar Eol]

Why did that instantly become about FvS, and being sure to hit them harder? That was hashed out in over 30 pages already.

Next up? Limiting FvS's to cantrips... Just imagine what happens when Archivist comes in!