Just venting and airing some frustrations.

[flipside43]

Knowing exactly what mobs you were facing would really help assess things.

I am with the others though, 48 H/MS in a combat situation isn't too bad considering most of your gear will be oriented to combat and not H/MS.

Before the hell store I could hit 80/80 with H/MS and 82 on Listen. With the listen nerf on amplify/cc and the implimentation of the hell store I hit the cap on hide and nearly on listen (95/90 I think). Meanwhile, with the lower degree of listen gear in hell store, my listen dropped by 10 points. That's pushing nearly a 20 rank different for listen/move silently. So, win there for the sneaks.

I also run about 4 sets of gear: perform, combat, detection and sneaking.

Mallore, sneak is about as much of a class as spotter is. It's a function, much the same. One builds around hiding, the other detecting. The availability now of hide gear is a lot higher than detection gear.

[chad878262]

Ok, seriously. How the sweet hells are you getting Hide and MS that high, without having a metric butt ton of the old gear that new players can't get their hands on any more?

Look at the date I joined the forum, that's when I started playing. I have no "old gear" (or dm rewards) calodans math plus ranger spells is mostly right. To be a sneak you have to focus everything on getting high stealth. I also didn't have an alt for content when I played Cranston, he was the only character I played during that two years consistently. I had chord, but I didn't get him to epic levels until after I retired Cranston so no I didn't use my bard to outfit my sneak. If anything my sneak helped outfit my bard. It just took a year and a half before I request learned how to play him in such a way as to be capable solo in most areas.

It's actually a bit funny that anyone would consider me as being old guard with money and gear. I never once been able to win a trade with AC81, Karond, M3ntalist or any one with the high epic stuff, mostly don't even have stuff worthy of a response from them. It's simple to assume anyone giving advice had it easier than you, but in most cases they didn't. As much as it's difficult to play a sneak that also makes it very rewarding, but I get that this is in hind sight. In the early months (as in 18 months ) I was frustrated too, but when I stopped assuming I just couldn't do it because I didn't have access to epic gear and started analyzing what wasn't working (and the little that was working) I started to improve and was able to solo more content. When I started PMing back and forth with various expert sneaks I got even better and saw where I was missing important tactics, consumables and other bits of knowledge. No one can make you improve, you have to accept what you don't know and be willing to either slowly teach yourself or seek help (or a bit of both, as was my case)

That's pushing nearly a 20 rank different for listen/move silently. So, win there for the sneaks.

Actually it's not a win for sneaks as there is exactly one spell that improves move silently. It's much more difficult to increase vs hide. There was a very good reason for limiting listen improvement and it was to make sure move silently/listen had similar counter play to hide/spot.

[flipside43]

lol I meant it more that it was a benefit to the sneaks, they got an advantage, not that it was a perfect win. That there was a greater gap created between listen and move silently with the gear introduction and nerfs introduced.

[chad878262]

Right on flip, was just making sure we didn't turn in to a spotter vs sneak thread (God help me I hope we are fine with those!)

[Mallore]

Knowing exactly what mobs you were facing would really help assess things.

I am with the others though, 48 H/MS in a combat situation isn't too bad considering most of your gear will be oriented to combat and not H/MS.

Before the hell store I could hit 80/80 with H/MS and 82 on Listen. With the listen nerf on amplify/cc and the implimentation of the hell store I hit the cap on hide and nearly on listen (95/90 I think). Meanwhile, with the lower degree of listen gear in hell store, my listen dropped by 10 points. That's pushing nearly a 20 rank different for listen/move silently. So, win there for the sneaks.

And this number is acheived by your buffs too. Not just pure gear and skill.

Mallore, sneak is about as much of a class as spotter is. It's a function, much the same. One builds around hiding, the other detecting. The availability now of hide gear is a lot higher than detection gear.

Its not not "about as much" its not even close, Spotting is an activity. Sneaking is a trait to a class. Its why Sneak attack triggers off detection or flanking, its why this and that and more are attributed to sneaking. This server allows Full AC and Spot gear, why not sneak gear the same? And Sneak gear numbers do not pass Spot Gear numbers. they are equalish.

After all if this is going to be a thing "spotting" why isn't spell immunity a thing? Why can I not chose to build and be immune to all magic if someone can be immune to sneaking.

Though its not even like this is the big problem. The end game content is so out of wack its not fun, which is the original posters problem. The problem I agree with, and I hope you and others do too.

[Snarfy]

As far as Hide/MS goes, in order to avoid getting spotted by 90% of the content you will need somewhere in the 65 - 70 range(I think chad was aiming a little high, but w/70 you'll be perfectly fine. Maybe)... and those scores are easily attainable without having the stealthy or skill focus feats, and perhaps even without having to take a trip to Avernus. But, like Chad says, you will have to fill every single gear slot in order to reach this range.

The only areas where you will likely have trouble with getting detected by monsters with these scores are going to be the lower to mid epic areas and up, IE: Nashkel mines(it will happen rarely), Frost Giant keep, some areas of Durlags, Yuan-ti area(possibly), and any area with epic bosses you will be detected 100% of the time. This includes the Lich in the Gullykin Crypt(which is a royal pain in the ass, and is not worth the frustration). With these scores, however, you will likely be spotted by most characters with above average detection, but... c'est la vie. Welcome to the OP like of a sneak!

Your AC, saves, and AB are about on par with what one would expect a rogue/assassin to have(even better, in the case of your AC). But, if you find that you are unable to find a group, solo'ing in the higher level areas is going to continue to be highly frustrating for you. Even I don't bother going to most of those areas solo, or fight bosses, and my sneak has well over the hide/MS range I stated above. One wrong move, or one bad lag burst/server fart-age, and you'll be headed to the fugue.

I instead had to rely on other players, which I did not mind to much as my character is a bit of a social butterfly. How is a lone wolf suppose to do this? Further Rogue is the only class on this server where the answer is often, get someone to help you...

This made me chuckle... as it's so painfully true. Speaking purely as a player who pretty much never groups up on his sneak, I will say that: being a lone wolf is possible, but there is a learning curve with how to deal with getting mobbed when a chest breaks your stealth. Also, the exciting and interesting areas/dungeons you'll be able to solo will be few and far between. For the record, and if you have a desire to lone wolf as a low to high epic level sneak with less than 70 hide/MS, you will want to avoid areas like Frost Keep, lower Durlags, Wyrms Forest(the big dragons are bad news), top floor of the haunted mansion, and never... EVER, under any circumstances(even if you have 100 hide/MS) go to the Invisible Stalker cave in the area north of Boarskyr bridge.

Truth be told, if you just want to have fun sneaking around doing roguish things or looting, you're probably better off lurking around the minotaur caves or Nashkel mines(and dont even blink at the rocks beasts). Otherwise, pretty much what Chad and the others here have said is spot on... and if you do decide to tackle bosses solo, bring a lot of consumables with you.

[7threalm]

i started a sneak and 50 hide/ms seems to be enoguh for most of the content, also sometimes when creatures spawn they can see if your hidden so its not smart to hang out near spawning areas

[flipside43]

Looking through again, 37 AC is pretty descent fighting two handed from what I remember. Though I think i've seen others recommend epic dodge. You'd need to rely on sustained DPS, combining attacking from HIPS and feinting. Is feint not viable here? I haven't played a toon with sneak attack on this server but before i've heard a few rumors that it's not so great.

[chad878262]

No way you can be a good sneak and a good feinter...to use feint you need to pump bluff in to the 80's because of the way feint works (d20+ bluff vs d20+BAB+ Spot). For the same reason there's basically no way to feint a boss.

[Snarfy]

Is feint not viable here? I haven't played a toon with sneak attack on this server but before i've heard a few rumors that it's not so great.

It's moderately viable, except against most of the monsters I listed above in the mid to epic areas, because they likely have spot scores in the 40-55 range. If you cant get your bluff up enough to accommodate for what chad just posted(*shakes fist* damn he's quick), then don't bother.

[flipside43]

Could feint be changed to be countered by sense motive like in PnP since we have it implemented?

[Nemni]

How does a rogue deal with their poor saves? Especially a low fortitude seems very scary. Is it always just trying to dodge spells with hips?

[chad878262]

How does a rogue deal with their poor saves? Especially a low fortitude seems very scary. Is it always just trying to dodge spells with hips?

There are several things they can do, besides count on hips.

Use scrolls of superior resistance

Acquire items with +3 universal or +4 fortitude or will saves to wear when needed.

Use a wand of protection from evil

Use a wand of least mantle

Use a wand of greater dispel on the caster and he'll rebuff sometimes instead of casting spells at you

Scout the areas and take out the caster(s) first. If there are too many draw them out one by one or use traps to thin out the herd. (ie. Don't play fair, you're not a fighter!)

If you think about a rogue/stealth type the way you think about a non-stealth character you're doing it wrong. Those characters have other protections and weaknesses and you can't play like them. If casters are going to wreck you stay out of range of their spells, stay hidden, or find out what spells they like to cast and obtain protection against that type of spells.

[matelener]

My experience of playing a level 30 Rogue/Assasin.

My gear is almost entirely store-bought (mostly from Avernus) with the exception of epic weapons, the whole set costs above 1 million gp. I've got around 10 wands that I frequently use. I'm in low 70s in terms of Hide/MS.

High epic content I can very reliably solo:

- Avernus bosses
- Dracolich
- Frost Giant King
- Yuanti Queen
- Black Dragon bosses
- Durlag's bosses
- Nashkel Mines Pit Fiend
- Gullykin crypt Lich
- Reachind Woods Gnoll boss

Boss that can be dicey:
- Chaos in the Haunted House

Three things that are important in accomplishing that:

1) Gear

You want that hide/ms to buy few rounds of not being spotted by some of these bosses. But, without dumping your AC at the same time.

2) Meta-knowledge

To be more precise, the knowledge of what the enemy can do and how you can counter it. You can't rely on HiPS because it's your offensive tool and the moment you attack, you're a very vulnerable thing for a round (low HP, low Fort, low Will, medium-low AC). Which means in order to survive you have to resort to what I described in number 3) or in some cases hit-and-run tactics, breaking the line of sight etc.

3) UMD and other consumables

Probably the most important point of all three. Rogues intrinsically lack the defensive mechanics to survive the epic content on this server.

Fortunately, you can counter almost everything with, unfortunately, quite costly wands.

Death spells -> Death ward
Mind-affecting spells -> Protection vs Alignment
Nuking spells and other save-or-die spells not covered by Death Ward -> Least Spell Mantle
Melee attacks -> Shield and Mirror Images. Summon Monster IX scrolls can be quite useful too (available in the thayan enclave)
Undead's DR -> Bless Weapon
Death armor or a DR spell -> Lesser Breach wand

To the OP:

I can however fully empathize with your struggle of leveling a not-too-well geared rogue. Getting the wands ASAP would be a good place to start. But otherwise, that is the fate of a rogue, being the number one candidate for a trip to the fugue

[Vesgar]

Use scrolls of superior resistance

You mentioned this before, but you can't buy that from npc shops, so you can't just buy it whenever you need it, and it's quite expensive when you can. I know it's a minor inconvenience, but you must also invest quite a lot skill points into UMD to be any good with lvl6 scrolls.

I'm not saying it's not a good solution, but definitely not an easy one.

Use a wand of greater dispel on the caster and he'll rebuff sometimes instead of casting spells at you

I thought of this before, but when it comes to annoying spellcasters what do you think about Touch of Idiocy? Is it any good?