Nice educational Vid. Should dispel some of the myths of fighting in heavy armor.
Fantasy games aren't realistic. If speaking of realism, 150lb soldiers carry 80 lbs of gear around with them. Imagine some of the very strong American football players wearing full plate. A lot of them use 40lb-100lb weighted vests for training and the weight is distributed along the torso only marginally affecting their agility. Now imagine a character with fantasy strength who can carry 500 lbs of gear. Full plate to them isn't going to slow them down one iota. And what about magical full plate 10% of weight? In a 'perfect' game strength would play a large part in Dex mod. A very weak 7 str Halfling would not be able to dodge in a chain shirt while a 22 str human would easily be able to dodge and use their full agility AKA dex mod even in full plate.
If you want to use a logic or realism argument, the only change that is logical for evasion to be toggled off based on carrying capacity.
It's been mentioned repeatedly that folk want to nerf certain divine caster, EDM, expose weakness builds. What is concerning to me is that people are willing to nerf strength and con build fighter, barbarian, man at arms, clerics, etc. and otherwise builds that are mediocre as collateral damage to do so. In changes there is always fallout in that some players of mediocre builds will no longer enjoy playing their characters anymore. Are people really that crass that they refuse to consider other people's enjoyment of the game?
Dex requirement and spot check seems the most appropriate course to me. Armor restrictions might be acceptable, but then a strength score along with the Dex makes sense. After all you speak of weight and bulk of armor, but a very strong character would be less burdened in plate as a very weak one would be in light armor.
mentioned all this is the other post about this same topic
well i guess the simple answer is. if the team wanted to could have it run by the rules given in the description it would have been done (x) years ago.
I'm understanding there was difficulty in getting it fixed?
Thing is it cannot be "fixed", you can't toy with what the feat does as far as I know. What you can do however is removing the feat entirely if the PC has a medium/heavy armor equipped and give it back when he isn't using such armors, it's a bit brutal but it should work.
How does the loss of evasion to medium and heavy armour characters effect play style, build or player satisfaction?
"The people proposing this are trying to nerf X", "This change wouldn't help nerf X", "In the real world...", "This is a fantasy game..." do not assist in a reasoned debate over the merits of this change.
The server tries to stick as closely to the core rules and source as possible, this change would continue that trend. How does this reduce the effectiveness of Strength and Constitution based builds?
Ms Mackarty: Humble and unassuming wanderer Mora Eldris: Talkative. Sera Lowe: Nervous ex-commoner Rachel Evermonte: Painfully serious knight
As you well know the wiki's aren't entirely accurate.
The game manual states verbatim:
Evasion Against spells and traps that can be partially avoided through a reflex saving throw, you take no damage (instead of half) if you succeed.
There is no mention of restrictions. One has to imagine it was coded as intended since the manual coincides with the the feat the way it was coded. Also, the water domain power of evasion is way OP compared to the rest of the feats. As you mentioned yourself people were choosing gods for domain power with no intention of roleplaying as a cleric of that god in question. I think you would agree for balance reasons the water domain power should be changed to something more reasonable like the time domains and a few others were such that people are choosing the gods for RP reasons and not mechanics.
Last edited by SBlack on Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
SBlack wrote:As you mentioned yourself people were choosing gods for domain power with no intention of roleplaying as a cleric of that god in question. I think you would agree for balance reasons the water domain power should be changed to something more reasonable like the time domains and a few others were such that people are choosing the gods for RP reasons and not mechanics.
Except...for the FACT that I play a Cleric of Istishia that employs Evasion from the Water Domain!!!
SBlack wrote:As you mentioned yourself people were choosing gods for domain power with no intention of roleplaying as a cleric of that god in question. I think you would agree for balance reasons the water domain power should be changed to something more reasonable like the time domains and a few others were such that people are choosing the gods for RP reasons and not mechanics.
Except...for the FACT that I play a Cleric of Istishia that employs Evasion from the Water Domain!!!
And thus puts you in a prime position to suggest alternative domain feats that are not over powered for reasons of rp and balance.
SBlack wrote:And thus puts you in a prime position to suggest alternative domain feats that are not over powered for reasons of rp and balance.
Evasion is not overpowered, if it is working as designed. That is the whole point, of this thread, plus others in which I've argued getting Evasion "fixed," which should have a decent effect upon Expose Weakness...especially if the 2 are tied together for how and when they function (re: Valefort's proposed fix, brutal as it may be).
Also, consider that Str/Con builds have a built in counter to lack Evasion. They get a whole lot more hit points to take damage on the chin. They will take more damage, but it's a lower percentage of their total health.
Rogues gain 6 hp per level, and rarely dump into Con. Fighters gain 10 hp per level and more frequently dump into Con. My level 10 Dwarf has insane CON, and certainly doesn't require Evasion to counter spells or traps of his CR.
In short, if you don't have Evasion, you can have Hitpoints.
Vogar Eol - Dwarf, "I likes pixie wine. It just be hard catching enough pixies to squeeze."
Rashal - Lady's Man, "What do you call a male elf? Pathetic, as it were."
Also, consider that Str/Con builds have a built in counter to lack Evasion. They get a whole lot more hit points to take damage on the chin. They will take more damage, but it's a lower percentage of their total health.
Rogues gain 6 hp per level, and rarely dump into Con. Fighters gain 10 hp per level and more frequently dump into Con. My level 10 Dwarf has insane CON, and certainly doesn't require Evasion to counter spells or traps of his CR.
In short, if you don't have Evasion, you can have Hitpoints.
The game manual clearly states evasion has no restriction in regards to armor requirements. It was coded as intended despite ignorant and misleading claims to the contrary. Also evasion is clearly the best domain power by far and claims none other by steve himself is that it is being abused. Lesser domains and less powerful domain powers such as the time domain and fury domain were augmented/nerf long ago and yet they pale in comparison to a feat like evasion.
I can't help but notice like many others have...nerf other peoples characters, but if you dare nerf mine I'm going to scream bloody murder????
Rogues and monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor. Some creatures with the evasion ability as an innate quality do not have this limitation.
At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Especially with the Armor changes, it's not much of a "nerf" to correct the mechanical bug.
I really don't think it's fully sunk in yet how much the armors were improved with the update. Weapons too for that matter. Pretty much any level of dexterity is very playable now.
Vogar Eol - Dwarf, "I likes pixie wine. It just be hard catching enough pixies to squeeze."
Rashal - Lady's Man, "What do you call a male elf? Pathetic, as it were."
Vogar Eol wrote:Especially with the Armor changes, it's not much of a "nerf" to correct the mechanical bug.
I really don't think it's fully sunk in yet how much the armors were improved with the update. Weapons too for that matter. Pretty much any level of dexterity is very playable now.
hell shop helps too. lots of good pieces there for those that do not have +4 MFP already.
