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Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:59 am
by Face
Calodan wrote:Rask wrote:Calodan wrote:I am of the opinion that the server does offer ample XP opportunity but not in a form that is suitable for everyone.
What does that mean?
It means that one can get in roughly 2-4 hours on the surface 8500 XP per week on top of any XP that one gets doing their normal thing if they can indeed log in for more than 2-4 hours a week.....This is IMHO plenty of XP weekly for a PC to get that aids the lower XP rate of the monsters of the server.
Now this is the quests.....It is no secret I am one of the soulless. Those that have quested their soul away for levels in the Epics time and again through RCR and L2P mistakes. Now I still do them for one PC at a time but it is IMHO worse than the Nine Hells.
What I propose is this. Take the XP that is given for quests and wipe it out. KABOOM! GOOD BYE QUESTIN WEEKLY FOR A LEVEL! Keep the quests as a learn the server mechanic and as a gold mine weekly for players. Just do not have them award any XP what so ever. Instead you implement a different style of awarding that XP that still has the players needing to put in time and or risk to earn their levels same as before.
Instead give each PC a weekly XP pool of approximately 8500 XP that doubles XP awarded from every XP award that is ticked off until that 8500 XP is depleted for the week. So a player can campfire RP, Fish RP and or Adventure/Grind RP for their XP. This has the added bonus of letting the player choose how they get that instead of making them run around not really RPing for the most part. This is not to say that players do not RP the quests but the good majority do not and use it as a OOC leveling tool.
The same could go for the UD as well. Especially the UD where one is dependent entirely in the mid to high epics on that weekly quest XP to gain levels.
I really do think this is a good thing for the server and no one loses here. Those that like quests keep them but also get that XP anyway they can same as everyone else and those that do not like them do not have to do them to get that XP either. It just takes that XP the server is already giving to level and award other means of XP weekly and allows the player to gain it doing anything on the server.
What say you BG?
This is a great point for sure. Part of the reason the crawl to gain levels feels so much like a chore is that it simply isn't fun. It feels like an actual chore that you have to do to progress your character to be able to take on new adventures.
How many of us here go off and grind while watching a TV show? I know I do. It isn't engaging or exciting at all. I'd rather be able to RP and explore and worry a lot less about this particular chore. But the rewards just aren't there.
As for a "double XP pool" it sounds great on paper, aiding those of us that don't have tons of free time, while not boosting the hardcore grinders too much. Buuut... Mechanically, and engine wise, is this even possible to implement? I doubt it...
YES IT CAN BE DONE! Realms of Darkness had a weekly XP pool that ticked off exactly that until the XP was gone! It was the best thing ever to be honest. So yes this can be done and implemented. This does nothing to increase a grinders level of leveling. We grinders already lost our souls and continue to do the quests. I would stop of course but it does allow me to play more PCs one per day for only a few hours instead of leaving them shelved.
Yes it can be done RoD even gave you bonus xp for your xp pool for rping.
So if your bonus pool was empty you would go rp to refill the bonus xp pool.
It helped with leveling as it made it some what faster for time spend.
It simply gives you more time to do fun stuff and it gives players with a RL life the chance to get some xp in there play time.
There was also alot more slowed down rp with less running and blitzing through dungeons just cous of that.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:17 am
by Vogar Eol
AC81 wrote:To what end ? Are we all in a rush suddenly? What happens at level 30 that I'm unaware of? What is the purpose and reasoning behind the proposed changes?
Predominantly, this is a poll that spawned from the New Player topic in general discussions. The end is simply information gathering, as suggested by Chad. Otherwise, no real proposal has been made, as such.
As for your other questions... What happens at level 30 is we can enjoy spending time on a secondary. When that one reaches thirty, we can enjoy a third character. You know, so we can have fun enjoying all the various custom classes and PRCs that have been added. Some people greatly enjoy the challenge of playing multiple personalities and/or multiple builds concurrently without being stuck in low levels. As ShortRedAndLoud likes to say, "I've never had a problem reaching max level fairly quickly. Max level is 10, right?"
Purpose and reasoning? To hold the interest of the newer players who have come from GOG sales, and older players trying the server for the first time. Many times we have heard the story about friends or interesting people giving up in the late Teens... when leveling becomes dull work. It also improves quality of life for people who can't dedicate large numbers of hours per week to a game.
Yes, it's always been rolling a boulder up a hill, but we can endeavor to make the Hill or Boulder smaller.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:31 am
by Diamore
AC81 wrote:To what end ? Are we all in a rush suddenly? What happens at level 30 that I'm unaware of? What is the purpose and reasoning behind the proposed changes?
Note: I speak entirely from personal opinion even though I generalise generously.
It is not that something happens at level 30. This is not the thought process for many. Players simply wish to progress. It may be mechanical, roleplay based, event driven or perhaps even socially for some.
What most people crave, and what successful games deliver, is the feeling (legitimate or otherwise) of progress. Improvement. That you are incrementally better than before. Games such as Diablo and WoW do it with equipment, slowly creeping up a power scale that seems infinite. Even "Clicker" games do the same thing, "you are now able to get more points per click".
The Dungeons and Dragons D20 system, for me, has always had an extremely slow sense of progression. It would come in one quick burst as you level up, slower and slower in an average gaming group. The occasional item drop might spice up your feeling of improvement, but the real sense of accomplishment came from that always rewarding next level. I have never had this issue with games not focused on levels. Champions, Cyberpunk2020 and even other semi-levelled systems like Savage Worlds have a more regular reward system to show this progress or improvement in your characters.
This is where the feeling of "the grind" comes from. It is not the desire to reach level 30 quickly that drives players to want a change to experience systems, but a more incrementally rewarding system. Without a base gaming system that has other ways to reward your play, a desire to see your actions rewarded substantively is normal in gamers of all types. The difference comes from what is viewed as rewarding play.
Once level 30 is reached, players like myself will begin another character's rise or perhaps RCR back down so that the progression can continue. Alternatively, they will focus on roleplay, guilds, events or other non-mechanical reward structures available to an online community such as ours. Those more mechanically focused will begin the quest for the absolute best gear, the final mechanical method to feel progress while playing for most.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:34 am
by Tsidkenu
Abstained. The poll has too many options and will return fruitless results.
Re: fighter 30?
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:48 am
by Steve
For me personally, so progression and simple rewards are not a problem if meaningful, as in the experience is fun and supports the RP (for a game like D&D).
If anything, working toward making the low level "journey" more enjoyable, rewarding and meaningful, is the better effort, because that makes for a Server with a wider breadth of possibilities for fun.
If speeding up is the answer, which I don't believe it is, then I foresee—much like it is now—a greater lvl 30 PC populated Server, and a greater reduction in variety...because challenging the endgame PC is quite finite and rote.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:52 am
by Rhifox
I voted for "higher levels only". I think the exp rate at early levels is absolutely fine, no issue at all. Epic levels however see a cumulative effect of vastly higher experience point demands, dungeon difficulty, and exp loss from death, while offering no greater experience gain. This has the effect of making dungeon running feel a wasted and painful prospect at epic levels, and thus encourages greater reliance on questing (which as we have established in the other thread, pushes higher level characters into zooming through lower level areas).
Higher exp values at epic levels would encourage more dungeon running at epic levels, I feel, because the reward would feel worth the risk. Presently it doesn't.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:01 am
by chad878262
Rhifox wrote:I voted for "higher levels only". I think the exp rate at early levels is absolutely fine, no issue at all. Epic levels however see a cumulative effect of vastly higher experience point demands, dungeon difficulty, and exp loss from death, while offering no greater experience gain. This has the effect of making dungeon running feel a wasted and painful prospect at epic levels, and thus encourages greater reliance on questing (which as we have established in the other thread, pushes higher level characters into zooming through lower level areas).
Higher exp values at epic levels would encourage more dungeon running at epic levels, I feel, because the reward would feel worth the risk. Presently it doesn't.
This is a great point Rhifox. The early levels feel like they have a good pace to them, but higher levels drag for long periods.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:02 am
by Nachti
I would rather like to see "roleplay criticals" which award 100-200 xp and occure more often at 1-20 then 21+.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:02 am
by Theodore01
Yeah if anything, working toward making the high level "journey" more enjoyable, rewarding and meaningful. (Increase the quality of loot in high lv. areas)
The progress from lv. 1-20 usually is fast, but then it gets worse and often goes one step forwards and 3 backwards (on death).
When i reach lv. 30 my chars. journey is almost over as nothing is to gain and fear.
Sure you can try some battles over and over now, but that gets boring fast.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:19 am
by dedude
Aspect of Sorrow wrote:Neither expressed nor implied, the point completely missed. The module is better off with a top to bottom reassessment of how better to cater to XP gain than just an increase of mob XP, something that has a considerably lower priority to things like quests, where once that element is considered then worry about the balance of the mob XP gain. The grind should be a side dish, not the main course. Additional storytelling arcs, extra gameplay features for the skills involved, things pertinent to lore. It's not that the XP on creature kills shouldn't be discussed, it's just not something soluble in the present tense and only skews in opinion because there aren't faster XP gaining alternatives.
The module needs to be able to sell itself on more than "grind to 30 and wait for DM events then."
100% agree with all that AoS said there.
Hands down, the thing giving me most enjoyment in this game is adventuring with others. Getting a small group of 2-4 characters together and embark on a daring adventure to a challenging dungeon is just awesome. Add in a little sprinkle of DM flavor once in a while and it's even better! I would love to see things added that encourage adventuring in groups. One thing could be better rewards at the end of dungeons and from bosses.
If you get more xp running in circles at the xwarts village while watching tv, than you do taking on a tough dungeon with a group, I'm not surprised a big number of players will do just that. It takes a conscious effort to pull yourself out of that grind mindset, for some it's like an addiction.
If you seriously sit down and play this game while watching tv, I think it's time to evaluate what it is you really want out of the game. Maybe another game is more suited for you? Maybe you need a little break from the game?
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:33 am
by Calodan
Like I said the issue is not the XP gain but how you can earn the XP already given. Not looking to make 30 faster. Looking to make 30 on my terms and not be forced to quest or grind all the time.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:03 am
by LISA100595
I'm all for additional ways to gain XP. It all depends on my mood and pain level of how I go about leveling my characters OR RPing. I say or because the two, in my experience are very different. However can be done at the same time in some cases.
Sometimes, when I'm feeling upto it, I like to RP (my apologies to those I RP with that those times are few and far between these days.) Sometimes I like to Adventure and RP with a group, this is my favorite way to gain XP. Sometimes when the pain is pretty high, some have noticed this more recently, I like to just go and grind and loot.. I'm not very lucky so the loot is crap but hey I keep trying!
Sometimes I do the quests especially at low levels and my preference is to do them with a friend and maybe a little RP together at the same time. Very rarely do I go for fishing but that can be nice too sometimes.
This is the beauty of our server, we cater to all different play styles and try to offer many different ways of leveling and gaining XP. Do Not feel pressured to conform to any one of these!! Play what you like.
Do I think the XP per kill needs to be raised? I vote Yes. Especially after level 20.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:06 am
by AlwaysSummer Day
Undead give great do lvl 1-3
Hilltop ruins give great xp lvl 3-8
Gnolls give great xp lvl 8-10
Xvarts give great xp lvl 10-14
That's when the great Grindy spots seem to drop off. Nagas were great back in the day with mini xp pinatas but they were removed.
Some people enjoy leveling by grinding. If you don't like it then don't do it. I personally don't like to run quests. To each is own. I think a high level zone should be made more Grindy.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:21 am
by Flasmix
It took me 4 years to get my current PC to level 30 because I hate grinding. I never took part in many DM events as for the longest time I viewed them as 'Go here, kill this, get xp/gold'. Hell, some of them are still that which is why I minimize combat but maximize RP in my events. I always try to focus my RP around other PCs instead of DM events.
I voted that XP could be raised in all areas. Years ago, it was higher. One could fight monsters as an epic character and get 30-40 xp a kill which made grinding more tolerable since you don't have to do as much.
Once I hit 30... I could finally focus just on RP or the occasional loot run. I don't care about the journey to get from 1-30, the true journey is what one can accomplish RP wise.
Re: Poll: Creature Kill Experience Points
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:16 pm
by Hoihe
What would be ideal if we made quests for each dungeon that reset daily (not per reset).
These quests reward XP according to their challenge rating, and can be as simple as interact with X at start, interact with Y at end that you can only access after defeating the boss.
This rewards enough XP for individuals of the right CR can advance at a decent pace by doing the dungeon once every day.
(do-me) grinding. This game is about adventure, and in P&P you are rewarded XP after encounters/achievements, not per-creature.
We could extend it so not only dungeons are involved, but visiting areas far from BG once a week rewarding a little "Pathfinder's Achievement."