New summon changes

[dedude]

Great info Nachti, thanks for the answers all. Can't wait for this to go in.

I know there have been talk of adding Greater Planar Ally spell to cleric thaumaturges so they can have a cohort of equal strength to a wizard thaumaturge. Is there any news around this? And also will the thaumaturge's augment summoning feat work on the planar spells?

[Nachti]

1. Yes, I will take care of the greater planar ally spell. I just cant give an eta yet.
2. The augment summoning function is hidden somewhere in a script. I didnt find it yet.

[Nachti]

To clarify a few things:

• The planar spells have been designed to be alignment based.
• Each alignment has a set of creatures that can be called.
• The planar spells will not substitute the summon creature spells.
• Due lack of time, planar binding spells only have a few neutral creatures, this might change in the future.

That means:

• Planar spells: summons Good, Evil, Lawful or Chaotic creatures.
• Creature I-IX spells: summons Neutral creatures such as elementals.
• Elementals will be removed from the planar spells.
• An evil character that pretends to be neutral or good should call a succubus or brachina in human disguise or use the summon creature spell line.

[dedude]

Thanks again Nachti!

[Glowfire]

Each alignment has a set of creatures that can be called.

Was there a particulate reason it was changed to this?

---

A few issues...

1) Gibberling appears for some reason in all Planar Binding spells? Its alignment is wrong, should be Chaotic Neutral (currently: Chaotic Good). But that's almost a moot point as it's not an outsider so should be removed.

2) Shadow Mastiff via Planar Binding doesn't work at all, at all of the spell levels.

3) The scaling... if its meant to work, it really doesn't. Greater Planar Binding summons a Sylph with 12 hp.

4) Some summons have a really, really ugly red-boil looking skin VFX. This was before Nachti's update but some are barely recognizable for what they are. Especially succubus and erinyes. If that could be removed (can provide a complete list of affected summons) it would make them look far less ugly.


If screenshots of all creatures are needed or some aid can be provided, am happy to help out.

[Nachti]

Dont look that much on the current state of the summons. They are mixed with the old ones, some creatures dont get summoned, the skin effects are still there, some are tiny and the available creature list is mezzed up.
I already took care of this issues and a fix is submitted to the admins. I dont know when this will happen, though.

[Glowfire]

Ahh, thank you. That's reassuring! I was dreading that this was the version we would have to play with

I really liked seeing the Brachina as an option. However, I didn't think the depiction was quite right. At the least, the wings should be made black. The white wings seemed out of place.


From Fiendish Codex II (p134) Somehow a contradiction on eye colour.

This female figure has long, amber hair with violet pools for eyes. She is dressed in revealing garb, and a smile plays on her lips. Even as her intoxicating eyes promise countless pleasures, her swollen lips pursed to kiss, something sinister seems to lie behind her otherwise flawless facade.

[...]

Typical Physical Characteristics: Even in its natural form, a brachina is a vision of beauty, something akin to a dark angel. It stands a little over 5 feet tall and weighs 120 pounds. It has pale skin, red hair, and black eyes. Spreading from its back is a pair of feathery black wings. Pleasure devils use polymorph to conceal their fiendish nature, taking the likeness of whatever their target might be attracted to.

Hidden: show

[Asmodea]

So... all I can summon now are a bunch of Celestials! I enjoyed being able to summon Elementals for non-serious occasions and larger Planar entities for more serious ones. This whole alignment based summoning seems silly for a few reasons:

1) Seem harder to balance when everyone summons different things.

2) Does not match at all with PnP where a casters ability to bind or control planar creatures has nothing to do with their alignment. I know this isn't PnP but it is going to be weird to explain to people that my character is not mean enough to bind or control a Devil or Water Elemental through magic.

3) As it stands I now announce my alignment every time I summon something. I don't mind a ton as my character doesn't really hide their alignment but it is annoying none the less.

As it stands I see absolutely 0 advantages to alignment based summoning and only disadvantages, why not open the options for everyone?

[Darkwind]

This was a solution looking for a problem as seems to be the case with a few more things than I first realized here.

If you want to change the summons to fit some alignment based mold, that doesn't seem to be an issue. What -is- an issue is stripping out the two creatures that were moderately effective (H.Devil and Hezrou) and putting in a bunch of sub-par 2nd stringers in their place.

The horned devil was powerful, ok, no argument but the creatures there now are comically weak. And to be honest, even the horned devil wasn't amazing it was rather a one trick pony. High AC but the damage output was moderate at best.
The stuff appearing now 20ish AC 20ish AB Really? This is an eighth level spell so something quite powerful should step out the other side of that portal. Otherwise, we may as well go back to calling up Shadow Demons from the lesser binding. (Or perhaps they've been nerfed / removed as well?)

I have to once again ask the main question regarding this rather hardcore nerf of Greater Binding... Cui Bono? Who does this benefit? This is not a PvP server so having a rather squishy mage being able to viably solo seems to hurt no one, or am I mistaken in this assumption?

I saw it mentioned that Horned Devil should be relegated to Gate, and that doesn't seem intrinsically bad except for one issue. Planar Binding lasts minutes per level and Gate last seconds per level. So again, there is a disconnect here. Either extend Gate to the same length or put something level appropriate into Greater Planar Binding. Right now, it is basically a broken spell, but mystifyingly it was intentional and by design.

Perhaps the new summon table mentioned will remedy this I'm certainly hoping so as I rather just lost my ability to effectively solo in the epic level range.

p.s. Since this is basically being retconned into the game world on a meta level, will we also be allowed to change our alignment? I was quite pleased summoning up demons / devils but I am not evil. If being evil is required for this I will gladly volunteer for it, otherwise we neutrals are "stuck" with the rather crap middle summons it sounds like getting neither powerful angels or devils.

[K'yon Oblodra]

For neutral characters I could imagine that they would be unable to summon the most extreme alignment creatures so Angel with Lawful Good or demons with Chaotic Evil...

Dunno just an idea guess chaotic good is also extreme

Edit: Oh just read the above and realize he would hate that idea... Sorry was just a thought

I spend some hours on fixing the summon tables and came up with a slight change:

Creature Alignment:
Angels: Lawful Good
Eladrin: Chaotic Good
Genie & Otherrs: Neutral
Devils: Lawful Evil
Demons: Chaotic Evil

For the next update players will summon creatures after the following template:

Character Alignment:
Good: Can summon angels and eladrins.
Evil: Can summon devils and demons.

As there are currently only a few neutral summons, neutral characters will summon creatures based on their lawful/chaotic axis.

Lawful Neutral: Angels and Devils.
Chaotic Neutral: Eladrin and Demons.
Neutral: A mix of creatures (no they are not able to summon every creature).

Although this is still subject to change according to DMs.

[Asmodea]

For neutral characters I could imagine that they would be unable to summon the most extreme alignment creatures so Angel with Lawful Good or demons with Chaotic Evil...

Why though? I can not understand why the alignment of the caster would or should have any impact on what they can bind. In PnP it does not and in general Arcane Spells have never been alignment locked in terms of capability of what they are able to do. The alignment of a wizard in my opinion should have no impact on the powers of their spells.

[Nachti]

The new summons are live.

A few issues are still there:
- Shadow Demons are mini-sized.
- Planetar and Shiradri are too big-sized.
- Planar Binding summons Bar-Lgura and Firre instead of Efreeti and Jann.
- Moon Dog is not summoned via Greater Planar Binding.
- Nightwalker has 38 AB and disarm. Got to look what happened there.
- Faerie Dragon model not in yet.
- Augment summoning and beckon the frozen might not work yet.

Why though? I can not understand why the alignment of the caster would or should have any impact on what they can bind. In PnP it does not and in general Arcane Spells have never been alignment locked in terms of capability of what they are able to do. The alignment of a wizard in my opinion should have no impact on the powers of their spells.

In pnp you have to draw a magic circle (3) or calling diagramm, pass a few checks and compel the creature into your service. The pnp process is more difficult then in nwn2, where the creature freely works for you. In pnp this would only happen if both share the same goals/alignment and the summoner does an exceptional good job at convincing.

Someone who wants to hide his alignment can use the brachina/succubus in human form (though does not prevent meta gaming) or the Summon Creature VI-IX spells to summon an elemental.

Feel free to suggest new neutral planar creatures which can be modeled. I also think there should be more neutral options.

[matelener]

This was a solution looking for a problem as seems to be the case with a few more things than I first realized here.

If you want to change the summons to fit some alignment based mold, that doesn't seem to be an issue. What -is- an issue is stripping out the two creatures that were moderately effective (H.Devil and Hezrou) and putting in a bunch of sub-par 2nd stringers in their place.

The horned devil was powerful, ok, no argument but the creatures there now are comically weak. And to be honest, even the horned devil wasn't amazing it was rather a one trick pony. High AC but the damage output was moderate at best.
The stuff appearing now 20ish AC 20ish AB Really? This is an eighth level spell so something quite powerful should step out the other side of that portal. Otherwise, we may as well go back to calling up Shadow Demons from the lesser binding. (Or perhaps they've been nerfed / removed as well?)

I have to once again ask the main question regarding this rather hardcore nerf of Greater Binding... Cui Bono? Who does this benefit? This is not a PvP server so having a rather squishy mage being able to viably solo seems to hurt no one, or am I mistaken in this assumption?

I saw it mentioned that Horned Devil should be relegated to Gate, and that doesn't seem intrinsically bad except for one issue. Planar Binding lasts minutes per level and Gate last seconds per level. So again, there is a disconnect here. Either extend Gate to the same length or put something level appropriate into Greater Planar Binding. Right now, it is basically a broken spell, but mystifyingly it was intentional and by design.

Perhaps the new summon table mentioned will remedy this I'm certainly hoping so as I rather just lost my ability to effectively solo in the epic level range.

p.s. Since this is basically being retconned into the game world on a meta level, will we also be allowed to change our alignment? I was quite pleased summoning up demons / devils but I am not evil. If being evil is required for this I will gladly volunteer for it, otherwise we neutrals are "stuck" with the rather crap middle summons it sounds like getting neither powerful angels or devils.

The old summons were eighter underpowered or overpowered. Horned Devil you mentioned, murdered the content on its own even without mage buffs.

The current summons do really well when buffed and matched against the content you begin to use it at, but there's still a chance of them being overwhelmed. In the epics, you certainly can't have a GPB summon grind alone without your participation. That should be the time when a mage develops a strategy and this involves looking deeper into your spellbook and build.

For example, as a thaumaturge you can easily grind by memorizing multiple sets of Gates + buffs and further supporting summons with controlling spells like clouds. Other mages might find more success with Dominate Monster (soften up a monster with Mind Fog, if your DC is too low) or simply running gathering mobs then AoEing them down - spell efficiency is the key.

However, there are talks of an epic feat that would upgrade Greater Planad Binding, together with the PRC summons. Nothing is certain but the dream of effortless mage playstyle isn't dead just yet.

[Nachti]

The wiki has been updated with these spells.

[Asmodea]

In pnp you have to draw a magic circle (3) or calling diagramm, pass a few checks and compel the creature into your service. The pnp process is more difficult then in nwn2, where the creature freely works for you. In pnp this would only happen if both share the same goals/alignment and the summoner does an exceptional good job at convincing.

Someone who wants to hide his alignment can use the brachina/succubus in human form (though does not prevent meta gaming) or the Summon Creature VI-IX spells to summon an elemental.

Feel free to suggest new neutral planar creatures which can be modeled. I also think there should be more neutral options.

The Gate Spell specifically requires no convincing or coercion though I suppose it is supposed to have an XP cost as well. But directly: as a LG Sorcerer I can now only summon Celestials I do not have access to any neutral or non-obviously angelic summons at all. Aurumachs or Formians or Slaad or Xorn or more powerful Genies are all possible options to flesh it out without taking directly from the Monster Summoning Line (Though being unable to summon Elementals with Planar summoning spells is a bit weird I can see it is being used to keep Summon Monster exclusive).