Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

mrm3ntalist wrote:Bear warrior complements the barbarian class very well.

You and I both know a pure Barbarian is stronger than a Bear warrior by a landslide. The extra feats, DR, and damage since the change makes bear warrior look like a girl. All I'm trying to do is get an offense mode to actually get the +2d6 damage the class once had back before Luna went MIA and the server migrated. Bear warrior will never be dragon druid.. but it can get its damned damage buffs back.

Akroma666 wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:Bear warrior complements the barbarian class very well.

You and I both know a pure Barbarian is stronger than a Bear warrior by a landslide.

Thats an overstatement.

With Bearwarrior a Barbarian20 can get Imp knockdown woth minimum int, saving the ability points for CON or STR ( even dex for when the evasion changes happen ).

On top of that you get two extend rage feats and a bear shape that can be used in situation where a good tank is needed ( High AC/ HP/ Regen ).

The scent feat is a good pvp feat to have.

So yes, a Barbarian/Bearwarrior can be stronger than a pure barbarian depending what you build for.

mrm3ntalist wrote:With Bearwarrior a Barbarian20 can get Imp knockdown woth minimum int, saving the ability points for CON or STR ( even dex for when the evasion changes happen ).

On top of that you get two extend rage feats and a bear shape that can be used in situation where a good tank is needed ( High AC/ HP/ Regen ).

The scent feat is a good pvp feat to have.

So yes, a Barbarian/Bearwarrior can be stronger than a pure barbarian depending what you build for.

Lets be realistic, and I'm glad were having this talk because it needs to happen. The bear warrior class is close.. VERY close to being done and when it is, I'll shut up and go away for good, but not till it gets the justice it deserves.

Pure barbarian gets:
More damage on a critical with thundering
Higher DR for free
The same AC from items
The ability to use expose weakness and any other skill/ability
The ability to use items while raged such as heal kits, potions, wands, scrolls
Epic Rage = 2 less Strength, +2 more Con, +8 Will
The option to speak in common
Weapon options with all damage properties in addition to vampiric and inherent drains/poisons/on-hit effects
No shapechange back to die mechanic

What does bear warrior get?
AC boost with little to no effort
A regen
+2 more strength

That regen does not make up for the fact they cannot heal.

As I once stated, if the class had more bear abilities such as a roar that works like an AOE damage bonus for you and your allies, a self heal ability with a cooldown, and/or a bleed ability then it might be worth it. But the class needs a baby damage boost like my proposed feral might ability: viewtopic.php?f=443&t=57952
That or some extra abilities that can give a temporary boost to damage and a minor heal ability so you dont shapechange back to kill yourself. I will be happy with the slight damage boost which i equate to getting back its +2d6 slashing. The healing mechanic can be fixed by taking more epic fast healing feats or waiting to shapechange back for heal kits.. but its dangerous.

Akroma666 wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:With Bearwarrior a Barbarian20 can get Imp knockdown woth minimum int, saving the ability points for CON or STR ( even dex for when the evasion changes happen ).

On top of that you get two extend rage feats and a bear shape that can be used in situation where a good tank is needed ( High AC/ HP/ Regen ).

The scent feat is a good pvp feat to have.

So yes, a Barbarian/Bearwarrior can be stronger than a pure barbarian depending what you build for.

Lets be realistic, and I'm glad were having this talk because it needs to happen. The bear warrior class is close.. VERY close to being done and when it is, I'll shut up and go away for good, but not till it gets the justice it deserves.

Pure barbarian gets:
More damage on a critical with thundering
Higher DR for free
The same AC from items
The ability to use expose weakness and any other skill/ability
The ability to use items while raged such as heal kits, potions, wands, scrolls
Epic Rage = 2 less Strength, +2 more Con, +8 Will
The option to speak in common
Weapon options with all damage properties in addition to vampiric and inherent drains/poisons/on-hit effects
No shapechange back to die mechanic

What does bear warrior get?
AC boost with little to no effort
A regen
+2 more strength

That regen does not make up for the fact they cannot heal.

As I once stated, if the class had more bear abilities such as a roar that works like an AOE damage bonus for you and your allies, a self heal ability with a cooldown, and/or a bleed ability then it might be worth it. But the class needs a baby damage boost like my proposed feral might ability: viewtopic.php?f=443&t=57952
That or some extra abilities that can give a temporary boost to damage and a minor heal ability so you dont shapechange back to kill yourself. I will be happy with the slight damage boost which i equate to getting back its +2d6 slashing. The healing mechanic can be fixed by taking more epic fast healing feats or waiting to shapechange back for heal kits.. but its dangerous.

I dont know where to begin with all this. It was you that said that

Akroma666 wrote:a pure Barbarian is stronger than a Bear warrior by a landslide.

The mechanical differences you described above, do not support that claim.

Moving forward, bear warriordoes give 4 feats for free that can be used mechanically to make "as good" barbarian builds.

From what you posted, i assume that you think a bear warrior has to be always in bear shape? I dont think that is the way this PRCs was implemented. Bear warrior gives an extra tool ( bear shape ) to use. My bear warrior would still bash things with a weapon raging, only using bear shape when it is needed.

mrm3ntalist wrote:The mechanical differences you described above, do not support that claim.

Of course they do! Look at the differences. The sole fact that a normal barb can live when leaving a rage and the bear warrior has the very good chance to flat die due to low health and ZERO option to heal other than a regen and wait mechanic is bad enough alone.

I am extremely proud of this:

Feral Might
Type of feat: Class
Prerequisite: Bear Warrior 10
Required for: None
Specifics: When not using a shield and transforming into Dire Bear form, you focus your all your might into your blows dealing an additional +2d6 slashing damage.
Use: Automatic

The QC wont even take the time to consider this as an option is what truly bothers me. I have cited numerous counts of people who are disappointed with the damage output and Valefort has told me that it doesnt need damage, its a tank class. So I proposed dropping the AC by 4 which is considerable, in exchange for a more damage output option. No one even bat an eye at it and my suggestion fell on deaf ears. Again, I am not the only one who thinks this class needs a tiny boost, its in my citations, but I am currently the only person playing one that is ACTIVELY trying to reason with QC to please, please, please listen and just give it that last little bit of damage it once had so that the class can actually be useful in epic content.

Akroma666 wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:The mechanical differences you described above, do not support that claim.

Of course they do! Look at the differences. The sole fact that a normal barb can live when leaving a rage and the bear warrior has the very good chance to flat die due to low health and ZERO option to heal other than a regen and wait mechanic is bad enough alone.

I am not saying that you are wrong ( or right ). One might feel that a PRC is weak compared to someone else who feels that it is strong. That is normal. The exaggeration part ( "by a landslide") is what i commended on. Its fine if you think this PRC is weak. The numbers dont support the big difference you make it out to be on those two specific builds - A pure barbarian and a Barbarian20/Bearwarrior10

I am extremely proud of this:

Feral Might
Type of feat: Class
Prerequisite: Bear Warrior 10
Required for: None
Specifics: When not using a shield and transforming into Dire Bear form, you focus your all your might into your blows dealing an additional +2d6 slashing damage.
Use: Automatic

The QC wont even take the time to consider this as an option is what truly bothers me. I have cited numerous counts of people who are disappointed with the damage output and Valefort has told me that it doesnt need damage, its a tank class. So I proposed dropping the AC by 4 which is considerable, in exchange for a more damage output option. No one even bat an eye at it and my suggestion fell on deaf ears. Again, I am not the only one who thinks this class needs a tiny boost, its in my citations, but I am currently the only person playing one that is ACTIVELY trying to reason with QC to please, please, please listen and just give it that last little bit of damage it once had so that the class can actually be useful in epic content.

But we did consider the option. You have been asking/pming about the bonus damage for many months. Nothing changed since the last time you asked for bonus damage.

mrm3ntalist wrote:I am not saying that you are wrong ( or right ). One might feel that a PRC is weak compared to someone else who feels that it is strong. That is normal. The exaggeration part ( "by a landslide") is what i commended on. Its fine if you think this PRC is weak. The numbers dont support the big difference you make it out to be on those two specific builds - A pure barbarian and a Barbarian20/Bearwarrior10

A Barbarian 20, Fighter 6, Rogue 4 build will out DPS and tank this build and even worse it has full access to abilities, items, and equipment. I'm not going to even try to argue this class against a dragon druid as we both know its out of its league and this is a martial class not a caster. What is so horrible with giving someone the option for an additional +2d6 damage as opposed to +4 AC? Options are always nice.. and this option isn't world shattering or game changing.

mrm3ntalist wrote:But we did consider the option. You have been asking/pming about the bonus damage for many months. Nothing changed since the last time you asked for bonus damage.

That is not what was told to me by Valefort;
If it helps you the QC thread wasn't even bumped with your suggestion even though everyone received your PM
How is one supposed to take that? Happily? It's just degrading that I have to get on my knees and beg and gravel for you guys to just ignore my post.. I am going out on a limb here mrm3ntalist.. I made an icon.. found a compromise to the fact its got a good AC, and now im even offering to help code it if I'm allowed to see the code.. its insulting to be told "we didn't bother with your idea."

I challenge anyone on QC to go try and fight their way through yuan-ti and just the hydra solo with a bear warrior. Or just try to reach the dracolich.. just get their with all that DR. The DR on epics murders you, and you dont get the option of adamantium fist or a weapon change. +2d6 will fix that.. sometimes it does nothing and you get baby damage still.. sometimes you actually hit something hard enough to matter.

If you gloss over the Bear warrior thing for a moment; the point regarding the non-elemental gloves for non-monks might be worth considering, not just for bear warriors but for other classes as well -- maybe have a pair in the epic shop to please everyone?

In regards to the bear warrior (although I own a level 8 one) I don't really know much about it to comment. However, I did help two QC testers in the arena with the bear warrior testing -- and they held out pretty well vs epic bosses. Though I do think more testing needs to be done; to me -- I think a few more defence perks would solve a lot of these problems (i.e. ability to use potions / DR?)

However in regards to effiecency and trade off -- the smart player would go for a class such as fighter I think compared to the bear warrior (which I took for RP reasons) Akroma666 brings up a good point -- in bear form our only healing is from others or the regen bonus which isn't a very strong defence considering potions and wards can grant non-bear warriors this ability.

I don't know what the answer is...but the 'Damage inflicted' is something that concerns me, even more so as a DM, mainly because it forces us to churn out bigger and stronger monsters when planning events -- if anything I would like to see damage nerfed, not increased because this is a bit of a problem when players rip through 10k+ hp bosses like butter.

I am not going to argue about the mechanics. It is clear you have made your mind and we both said what we could. I am going to comment just on the following quote.

Akroma666 wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:But we did consider the option. You have been asking/pming about the bonus damage for many months. Nothing changed since the last time you asked for bonus damage.

That is not what was told to me by Valefort;
If it helps you the QC thread wasn't even bumped with your suggestion even though everyone received your PM
How is one supposed to take that? Happily? It's just degrading that I have to get on my knees and beg and gravel for you guys to just ignore my post.. I am going out on a limb here mrm3ntalist.. I made an icon.. found a compromise to the fact its got a good AC, and now im even offering to help code it if I'm allowed to see the code.. its insulting to be told "we didn't bother with your idea."

I think you are being harsh and a bit dramatic if you will allow me to say. If there is any person that listens to everyones suggestion that is valefort. In this case however, we have discussed this damage increase suggestion of yours in the past - the first time you asked us to. I understand that you feel strongly about it and made nice suggestions but it was decided not to be implemented.

There is no need to "get on my knees and beg and gravel for you guys" like you said. That wont change anything. Nor your suggestion got ignored. It is just after the X time we got PMed about it, it is difficult to find motivation to discuss the same thing for the X time when nothing changed compared to before.

mrm3ntalist wrote:it is difficult to find motivation to discuss the same thing for the X time when nothing changed compared to before.

AC dropped and I offered to do the work.. is that not enough?

Akroma666 wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:it is difficult to find motivation to discuss the same thing for the X time when nothing changed compared to before.

AC dropped and I offered to do the work.. is that not enough?

Akroma, it is not about dropping the AC or doing the work. The QC feels that such change is not needed.

How is one supposed to take that? Happily? It's just degrading that I have to get on my knees and beg and gravel for you guys to just ignore my post.. I am going out on a limb here mrm3ntalist.. I made an icon.. found a compromise to the fact its got a good AC, and now im even offering to help code it if I'm allowed to see the code.. its insulting to be told "we didn't bother with your idea."

If someone found that the idea was good he would have made a post, if no one does it then the idea is not good ... that's it. I didn't mean to be insulting at all and don't expect you to be happy about it but when an idea is rejected several times perhaps it's time to drop it instead of insisting.