PrC Master of Chains (!!!Work in Progress!!!)

[aaron22]

My take on this...

--S N I P--

All in all it does give a lot, but it also self-imposes very limited branching out to other PRC's. Not sure I understand the Non-Good alignment restriction and the DC's are too high, but most of the other feats/abilities are ok. I think the biggest issue is that there is already a backlog of PRC's to implement and this one is a bit more effort (possibly a lot more) than other PRC's.

because this PrC sounds scary. scary=bad. bad=not good. see?

[chad878262]

So good people can't be intimidating? Someone never attended Catholic School...

[Calodan]

So good people can't be intimidating? Someone never attended Catholic School...

Or read THE HULK, THE PUNISHER and BATMAN!

How about The Walking Dead and Rick Grimes? Good man very scary.

[aaron22]

chad, you were speaking of the multitude of changes that would have to be made for this PrC to be implemented. is one of those animations? can we even do something like that with our code restrictions? to me that sounds like a coffin nail.

about the flail could we not just implement the heavy flail to the weapon list? it might be already, but i would not have any way of knowing that.

so it takes 6 feats to qualify.
it gets feats, Whirlwind*, improved WW*, cleave*, great cleave*, IKD*
gets spell like ability of death armor, entangle
not too sure where you guys are at for what you want to keep or not from the first two iterations. but this is what i think you are at. there might still be a weapon focus in there and three TWF feats along with some discussion on AC bonus (Nat or Armor). not sure you are still wanting them.

*cannot be used as a qualifying feat

if it just granted the 5 feats and two spell like abilities, i think it is ok. if it also granted WF and the three TWF feats and AC bonus. that is OP. i like the class and the restrictions need to be considered when you weigh the benefits. i just do not see a place where 9 feats in a 10 level PRC plus 3 spell like abilities fit.

[chad878262]

Hmmm, I honestly didn't read the conversation as I have been away for 2 weeks and am catching up with work stuff as well as forum stuff. I just got a PM asking me to review it so I was only looking at the first post.

This said, no to giving the class Cleave/Great Cleave since that would allow for qualification of Frenzied Berzerker / Blackguard and all the other abilities of the class (unless they have already been discussed) would be pretty OP with Blackguard Aura and Enhanced Improved Power Attack would be very strong with also being able to attack from further away. If you want to give them the same abilities, but call them a different name so it doesn't qualify for other PRC's I'm fine, but there are some powerful synergies with those other classes so I don't agree with giving them free qualification feats.

Regarding animation, I was assuming we could just use flail animations or possibly some kind of modified Scythe animation, but someone more well versed in such things would need to comment on that.

[K'yon Oblodra]

Okay guys, lots of things for me to comment on.

First of all thanks for checking this all, thanks for your super fast reply chad, thanks to all others as well. While I have certain ideas for the class I've found certain other ideas in the posted things that I like a lot.

The other very important thing here is to understand that I have no idea how to really balance things which is probably even harder here due to the added active components that are not easily weighed up. So I really appreciate that the more experienced people around here help me with their feedback.

For the state of the class, I am currently seeing it as it is in the first post, I just need to find a good description for the chain bind ability.
I'll adjust the DCs as well, the renamed Cleave and Greater Cleave are supposed to be chain only so there is no conflict.
Your point with the chainmail and chain shirt armor is a good one I let that out carelessly but yea I'd like to have that restriction to only these armor types.
Regarding the alignment restriction I honestly don't care too much. I'd think someone who specializes in ripping his opponents apart with chains in a pretty brutal way would need to be somewhat sarcastic and would therfore be unlikely a good person. The Punisher and the Hulk in his enraged form but also batman and Rick are really not good people or at least the violent part of their personalities is not. The punisher is clearly no hero, Hulk when enraged not really either and batman and Rick are torn people they want to protect their loved ones but are skirting on the edge to being evil with how they achieve that. But yea I don't really care if we keep the restriction.
The Ironclad feat that increases size is something one could possible make in a way so it does not stack with other size increasing items if that could cause a problem.

What I absolutely do not want to add are any kind of two weapon fighting feats as I want this class to be strength focused with a normal amount of attacks and no extra attacks through the two weapon fighting feats. Also no Weapon focus this is something one could still get as a feat through other means.

One of the reasons I do not want to give the class two weapon fighting or weapon focus is that they are passive abilities that grant stats even if an extra attack might be a bit different and more active.

Regarding the idea behind the way the class is build atm.

It has many restrictions while having many boosts, reason being that I imagine this class to be primarily for fighters or people that really want to focus on this PrC. It is supposed to be something that is purely a combat class. I mentioned in other topics that I do not like that almost everything has some kind of spell progression and really hoped that this class could be giving a purely combat oriented build enough power to live without needing to dip into anything magical or only in a limited way.
This is where all the restrictions come into play they are basically supposed to keep the class in line so it can not be abused to build something silly powerful by intertwining magical classes.

I'll gladly adjust the class until you guys think it is balanced although my prefered way of doing it would be rather imposing more feat perequisites on it than taking away feats... as much as possible of course we can talk about removal of abilities

Lastly about the state of affairs with having backlogs with PrCs, I have no idea how hard it is to do this kind of stuff but if the class is well received I'd actually try to help doing it or even do it myself if I can get into the toolset. I would even try to get further classes done if I find myself able to work with the toolset

Adding the chain weapon would be great and having it use an already existing animation would probably make it a lot easier... who would I need to talk to to see to that?

Depending on how could I could get into the toolset I would also offer my help with that.

I'll update the class later this evening and post an update description so you'll know.

Thanks again for all your valuable feedback...comments I still need to check yours...sorry lacked the time and wanted to get back to chad first as I had actually pmed him and he was so kind to react so quickly

[aaron22]

ironclad just sounds like a rename of Improved KD.

i have a question regarding the extended range. clearly that is to allow for two Aoo's on close range melee. but i would think that that extended range is actually the most effective range as well. i would think that a PBS type feat would be wanted so that it would not have an AB penalty.

as far as chain bind goes. i would consider using a simple hold person spell like ability on a range touch attack with a reflex instead of a will save and two rolls each round to free oneself. a skill check escape artist and a strength check. 5 min reset on the feat.

i also think that the constant vigilance is a clicky feat. it would act like parry does. i am unsure if a parry would allow an aoo, but in this case i would say it is preferable. while in this parry mode, a simple spell like ability of entangle forms around you. the save for this would be reflex, but while in the AoE, reflex saves are reduced by 4. therefor this mode would help with the chain bind and create a nice synergy with that.

[K'yon Oblodra]

ironclad just sounds like a rename of Improved KD.

i have a question regarding the extended range. clearly that is to allow for two Aoo's on close range melee. but i would think that that extended range is actually the most effective range as well. i would think that a PBS type feat would be wanted so that it would not have an AB penalty.

Extended range would be innate to the chain and would probably help with Aoo's yes. Excuse my noobyness but what is PBS again?

as far as chain bind goes. i would consider using a simple hold person spell like ability on a range touch attack with a reflex instead of a will save and two rolls each round to free oneself. a skill check escape artist and a strength check. 5 min reset on the feat.

Thought of something like that live that you included escape artist!

i also think that the constant vigilance is a clicky feat. it would act like parry does. i am unsure if a parry would allow an aoo, but in this case i would say it is preferable. while in this parry mode, a simple spell like ability of entangle forms around you. the save for this would be reflex, but while in the AoE, reflex saves are reduced by 4. therefor this mode would help with the chain bind and create a nice synergy with that.

I'd prefer this as an aura a synergy with the chain bind is again a great idea.

[chad878262]

aaron22 wrote:
ironclad just sounds like a rename of Improved KD.

i have a question regarding the extended range. clearly that is to allow for two Aoo's on close range melee. but i would think that that extended range is actually the most effective range as well. i would think that a PBS type feat would be wanted so that it would not have an AB penalty.

Extended range would be innate to the chain and would probably help with Aoo's yes. Excuse my noobyness but what is PBS again?

PBS = Point Blank Shot, which should not be necessary. In PnP the Spiked Chain is the only weapon that can be used 5' and 10' with no penalty. That said, I don't know if the engine will support the increased range, otherwise spears and halberds would be way better weapons.

[aaron22]

PBS is point blank shot.

just a thought, but to me i would consider the deadliest (most effective) range for such a weapon would be an area of 5-10 feet away from the wielder. inside of 5 feet the weapon's max effectiveness would decline (-4 to AB). So with this we could grant a feat called "Close Quarters Swing" at lets say level 3 or 5 that removes this penalty, or we could make it a conditional prerequisite en lieu of one of the other feats. this would do a couple things for the class i can see. first it would make the class the most optimal user of the chain weapon and would likely make it the only user of said weapon. that is cool. second, if given at level 5, then it would make dipping the class non optimal in nearly any circumstance.

well, an aura of -4 to reflex and 50% slow may be a bit OP considering the other benefits of the class. making it a parry mode might be a way to keep it with the other benefits. instead of having to sac something. lets call it a bartering tool.

edit: saw chad's explanation of spiked chain after i completed my post. understood.

[K'yon Oblodra]

I have to admit I have a hard time judging distances in feet but the chain is basically just a normal melee weapon with range like a halberd maybe a bit more.

I'd hate to make the chain as weapon only bound to this class, I'd like to add it to the server available to anyone who chooses to get the exotic weapon feat.

But I guess you misunderstood something initially that is now clear to you.

The Mode thing always feels very unresponsive would like to keep it as aura we could just reduce its effects to balance it. Also keep in mind ALL and any feats gained by the class are bound to the use of Chains... If not wielding the chains not a single ability will have any effect at all.

[K'yon Oblodra]

PBS = Point Blank Shot, which should not be necessary. In PnP the Spiked Chain is the only weapon that can be used 5' and 10' with no penalty. That said, I don't know if the engine will support the increased range, otherwise spears and halberds would be way better weapons.

The game supports their increased range, you can use these weapons to attack from a second row when fighting in doorways and the like and if you wear a weapon even only a greatsword you're Aoo's trigger earlier then when wearing shorter weapons.

Not sure if that is related to range of the weapons or just coded via weapon size in that case chains could be made a large weapon and the ironclad feat would allow one to treat it as a smaller weapon than it is I suppose.

[aaron22]

The game supports their increased range, you can use these weapons to attack from a second row when fighting in doorways and the like and if you wear a weapon even only a greatsword you're Aoo's trigger earlier then when wearing shorter weapons.

Not sure if that is related to range of the weapons or just coded via weapon size in that case chains could be made a large weapon and the ironclad feat would allow one to treat it as a smaller weapon than it is I suppose.

how do we know that 10' range is coded in the game? is there another example of such a weapon? only melee touch attack can range 10' from what i have seen.

[K'yon Oblodra]

Update the Class description:

- adjusted the order of skills according to their unlock levels

- added a disclaimer that punishing lash and greater punishing lash do not count as prerequisites for classes that require cleave or greater cleave

- added a description for chain bind

- changed DCs on Scare and Constant Vigilance to better reflect the target DC of 35

The thing that is still a bit open for me is the whirlwind feat, if it is required or not to get it before getting circling death one could add it at level 5 I suppose but I do not deem it necessary.

[aaron22]

well tempest 5 grant whirlwind and tempest whirlwind at the same level. tempest WW is the same as your MoC version