Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

aaron22 wrote:i do not doubt that the inspiration is money without having to eat a penalty for taking bard/other base class. im trying to find some synergy with the perform skill. i whipped up a couple builds with it and like the inspiration and high bab and high will at only a 5 level cost. im just trying to find a way to get some perform for a lower cost because orc walks in with an int penalty.

The easiest would probably be to include Dervish 10 in your Orc Build, which is not a bad synergy anyway since you gain AC and Damage along the way... Rogue is another way since you can spread your Rogue levels out and save 5 skill points each time. Rogue 4 spread out at level 1, 10, 20 and 30 for example would allow for some extra Skill Points to help you max 3, maybe 4 skills instead of 1 or 2. Obviously Able Learner can help the most, if you can afford it.

F 12 / Dervish 7 / War Drummer 5 / FB 6 ?

rogue doesnt provide perform as a class skill

No, but it gives a bunch of skill points, which you were asking about... Taking Rogue intermixed with War Drummer/Dervish levels and saving 5 skill points allows you to pump Perform up more.

So is the War Drummer, drumming when using his abilities?
Does he only have to drum for a few seconds to get his abilities going before pulling out his great axe?

Can't really drum and fight at the same time can you?

Tekill wrote:So is the War Drummer, drumming when using his abilities?
Does he only have to drum for a few seconds to get his abilities going before pulling out his great axe?

Can't really drum and fight at the same time can you?

Can make a beat on your face.

chad878262 wrote:

aaron22 wrote:there are not many prc's that grant perform that do not require bard songs.

Dervish, Bladesinger/Deathsinger at a minimum.

Regardless Orcs by lore are not bards. The War Drummer is not a story teller and has nothing in relation to a Bard.

orc can be bards, but not in the way pinkskins do it. it would be war chants, and maori-like war dances and stuff. the culture of the orc has to be considered. the principle behind what is a bard and what we hear when we say orc bard are different. lore wise, there would not be alot of classes for different races that are ALLOWED due to perception, but if the "what is it" is used, it can make sense.

and we can also try to justify anything if given a forum and a desire.

aaron22 wrote:

chad878262 wrote:

aaron22 wrote:there are not many prc's that grant perform that do not require bard songs.

Dervish, Bladesinger/Deathsinger at a minimum.

Regardless Orcs by lore are not bards. The War Drummer is not a story teller and has nothing in relation to a Bard.

orc can be bards, but not in the way pinkskins do it. it would be war chants, and maori-like war dances and stuff. the culture of the orc has to be considered. the principle behind what is a bard and what we hear when we say orc bard are different. lore wise, there would not be alot of classes for different races that are ALLOWED due to perception, but if the "what is it" is used, it can make sense.

and we can also try to justify anything if given a forum and a desire.

Thought you didn't like snowflakes..

Kidding aside this prc makes a more traditional sense of what an orc bard might be. The goal was to present a unique, useful, but not op orc orc. This class does that. Everyone is, of course still welcome to make a 13 CHA, max STR half orc b26/wd4 ( meaning whirling dervish, or whatever)...

Thanks for the quick reply Valefort! That sorted alot of things out.

In the meantime, I thought of a few more questions:
-Does the OWD have to be in a Rage or Frenzy when he activates 'Orders to Charge' for his allies to benefit from the STR bonus?

-Does it stack with Orc or barbarian fast movement and other non-haste speed bonuses such as monk speed?

-Will stack with Orc speed

Does the speed bonus also stack with barbarian speed and monk speed?
...Actually, do all speed effects other than haste/flee the scene/expeditious retreat stack?

Now for a few comments and suggestions of my own, unsolicited!

the references to fear will likely go away for now.

Noooo. I thought this worked so well with the 'flavah' of the class; working orcs up into a frenzy, where they fear no enemy!

Consider the bodyguard's 'Protective Aura' or the Paladin's 'Aura of Courage' for balance. One provides +3 saves and +2 Deflection to all allies, and the other renders the character immune to fear and gives allies +4 on saves vs. fear.

Maybe add a +1 to Will saves only, becoming +2 at 5th level? I feel this will give it a unique feature that sets it apart from Bardic inspiration without being overpowered.

-Do the STR bonuses granted to allies stack with existing STR bonuses they may already have (from gear or Bull's STR) ?

-Not sure yet.

I think they should, for balance's sake. Considering that most melee builds will have pre-buffed STR scores, the +5 to STR from Epic Rage/Orders to Charge would likely end up being between +1 and +3, diminishing its usefulness.

Building on my previous suggestion.. Instead of Furious Charger and Powerful Charge, perhaps replace them with Dire Charge and Improved Initiative?
The increased initiative represents the bloodlust and eagerness to get to grips with the enemy and is in line with the feel of the ability, in my opinion.

One final suggestion, then I'll shut up.

Savage Cacophony: At 2nd level, the bonuses granted by Battle Rythm from nearby Orc War Drummers stacks, for a total of up to +4 AB and +4 damage. ((This could also apply to Will save bonuses, should that route be taken)) This only applies to OWDs while they are within eachothers Battle Rythm AoE. While Savage Cacophony is active, the increased bonuses apply to allies in range of ANY of the participating OWDs Battle Rythm AoE's.

At 4th level, the 'Inspire Fear' DC is increased by +1 per OWD level of each OWD in range, up to a maximum of +5 DC. This would give a maximum 36 DC vs. fear with multiple OWDs nearby.
Ex: A 4th level OWD and a 3rd level OWD are both using the Inspire Fear ability close to eachother.
The DC calculation would be 15+4+11(assuming he has 33 ranks in perform)+3(from the additonal OWD) = DC 33. The highest DC of the two characters is chosen, and applies to all enemies within range of either Fear aura.
This only applies to OWDs while they are within eachothers Inspire Fear AoE.

The addition of this ability would encourage orcy group play (read: Horde ). It would also bring the abilities mentioned above more in line with what a bard is capable of, at the cost of needing more than one OWD to achieve this; no single person should inspire like a bard does, after all.

Thanks for all the work you do for BG, Valefort and others.
Let me know what you think.

i never said i do not like snowflakes or unicorns. for a thriving community those things do not hurt the numbers. make all the moon elf barb20/FB5/D5's you want. it will not stymie the populous. What I do not promote is sure fail snowflakes for a struggling society. Orcs are a struggling community. as are a few others.

a boost is something that i wanted to see. a boost in the form of something like the dwarves got. or the elves. a prototype of something that is at least mechanically desirable. i will not look the gift horse in the mouth, and i am excited to see what i can build this. but do you think this falls in the same line as DD or AA? much was discussed about making a PrC that moved forward the Barb class. a barb friendly PrC that carried some synergy with other melee builds. this would have killed two birds with one stone. seemed the better move to me.

i digress. and sure i am bit let down, but this is a decision that was weighed by people that consider many more things than what i can and do. fact is though. a barb 25/WD5 is not better than a barb 30. its not better than a barb 20/WoD4/DC6. its not better than a barb20/D10. X25/WD5 is not better than any reasonable Bard build. it doesnt provide a keyway to combinations that would be difficult to achieve otherwise like good prc's do. why would someone (other than me) roll this? my goal was to have more people consider the orc prc when they toggle creations in their head. that was my goal, and so i am a bit let down. nothing personal of course. the way (#2) goes sometimes.

Aaron22, would any of the suggestions I've made make the PRC more palatable to you?
If not, what would you suggest changing?

..... Remember, it's not set in stone yet. And I trust QC will take reasonable suggestions into consideration in their final decision. Why else post the rough draft publicly? No one wants a new PRC that no one will play, after all.

So getting permanent +2 AB/damage for you and your party as well as -2 ab/ damage to enemies that fail a save is somehow bad? While being high bab? What can a barbarian 30 do with 2 extra feats that's equivalent to +2 to hit, damage and AC? Its like getting melee mastery for all weapons for you and your team with an additional 2 AC and DR against enemies that fail a save with a decent DC. (DC will be 36 for WD 5 with 32 perform)...

I would argue it's in line with what we added for elves with bladesinger and is even a bit better. Bladesinger is not better than what you can build with a gish already, but WD can make a stronger melee build than is currently available, even if its a minor improvement.

chad878262 wrote:(DC will be 36 for WD 5 with 32 perform)...

This is incorrect. DC for Inspire Fear is 15+OWD lvl+perform ranks/3.
Thus, the DC for a OWD 5 with 32 perform would be 30.

A typical racial class on this realm is the Dwarven Battlerager. It also needs Perform skill and grants it as class skill. Has 5 class levels.

It may be better for comparing.

Battlerager qualifies for Frenzied Berzerker. It gives +2 Natural AC. Has High AB and Fortitude as Good Saves.

Orc War Drummer qualifies for Warrior of Darkness (Iron Will is preq. feat). It gives +2 AB and +2 Damage. Also has a good chance to decrease enemy AB by 2 (similiar to increased Nat.Armor of Battlerager?) The PrC has High AB and Will as Good Saves.

-> Mechanically Orc War Drummer seems a bit better. Its a question how you value the access Battlerager gives to Frenz.Berzerker and Orc War Drummer gives to Warrior of Darkness.

Orc War Drummer:
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Orc_War_Drummer

Dwarven Battlerager:
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Dwarven_Battlerager

You forgot to add some key abilities of both classes.

Battlerager also gets Great Cleave, Fear immunity(take that OWD!), Powerful Charge, Dire Charge, Extended Rage and Improved Unarmed Strike.

Whereas Orc War Drummer also gets Orders to Charge.

Now, compare them again.

In my opinion, a bit of tweaking needs to be done before OWD is ready for action, but that tweaking shouldn't scale down the power.

::edit:: The perform requirements are also much higher for OWD. Which means less skill points for a race with an INT penalty.