Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

That "couple" points advantage + the DEX bonus means it's really close for the detector if the sneak has the best avilable gear. You basically need to roll 15+ while having the best detection gear and spells and full skill investment if you have low WIS.

Take someone with 10 wis, level 30 with full ranks in spot/listen, equip him fully with seven suns detection gear and he will detect 0 epic sneakers ever. Not a single chance. He'll need better gear AND spells. Also let's not forget that sneakers are combat ready when in sneak gear while detectors generally are not if they use detection gear.

If they need to roll a 15 and enter detect mode how long will it take them when they get a new roll every 2 seconds? That's 6 rolls in 2 rounds, 15 rolls after 30 seconds, one of those rolls won't be a 15 or higher? Once they roll that 15+ once, they have 'won the game' whereas the sneak has to hope they roll lower than 15 for the entire course of whatever RP is going on. Not to mention if they ward for improved stealth they need to worry about the icon on changing areas or the ward expiring that is visible to everyone, not to mention true sight (needs testing). The detector can use C&C and Greater Heroism to their hearts content to further increase their detection.

There is detection available with AC on Hell gear. Why compare a sneak with top gear with a detector with sub epic gear? A fair comparison is comparing equal investment in skills, stats, feats and gold.

If the sneak has gear from Seven Suns and the detector has gear from seven suns, even with 10 (or 8, or even 6) WIS, no magic, and no feats they will detect the sneak with same gear, 3 feats, a background feat and max DEX simply by entering detect mode.

Simply put, even dumping Wisdom and having limited or no feat investment a detector who purchases hell gear that has detection and AC for their slots will still detect a sneak. If you want to be a high end detection PC without Druid/Ranger/Bard you should have to make a commitment by taking 3 feats, a background feat and purchasing gear that does not grant other useful benefits like +3 saves in favor of +4 spot or listen. Those sneaks you are trying to detect are doing the same thing by purchasing gear with hide/MS instead of bonuses to saves and the like. In fact, like most sneaks you could simply carry around 2 sets of gear... one with max spot/listen benefits and another with max AC/Saves/etc. benefits.

You can't have AC and detection in slots and still detect a sneaker if you have low WIS, the sneaker will have more than 20 points above you. You need to sacrifice your AC or saves.

Valefort wrote:You can't have AC and detection in slots and still detect a sneaker if you have low WIS, the sneaker will have more than 20 points above you. You need to sacrifice your AC or saves.

Isn't the sneak sacrificing AC/Saves? Can't have an amulet with + sneak and AC (Epic Cloaked Amulet is not sold and only gives +2 AC)... Only dodge boots are available that give bonus to sneak and AC at +4. Regardless... If you are talking about a character wholly dedicated and focused on being in stealth, should you not have to be equally dedicated to detecting them? Why do we constantly compare detectors with low WIS, limited or no feat investment to sneakers that have 3 feats/+ background feat, max DEX and expect them to be equal? In your example, would a potion of gr. heroism and a wand of C&C not even the playing field?

Isn't the sneak sacrificing AC/Saves? Can't have an amulet with + sneak and AC (Epic Cloaked Amulet is not sold and only gives +2 AC)... Only dodge boots are available that give bonus to sneak and AC at +4. Regardless... If you are talking about a character wholly dedicated and focused on being in stealth, should you not have to be equally dedicated to detecting them? Why do we constantly compare detectors with low WIS, limited or no feat investment to sneakers that have 3 feats/+ background feat, max DEX and expect them to be equal? In your example, would a potion of gr. heroism and a wand of C&C not even the playing field?

They always need C&C and greater heroism to begin with ! Also sneakers have compeltely the upper hand when it comes to fighting if the detector is in detection gear. Surefire detection is definitely possible when you go all out but this does not go without sacrifices as well.

"should you not have to be equally dedicated to detecting them?" Clearly not, detection has to be easier than stealth otherwise the only detectors would be druids, which would be anything but fair. As of now the situation is acceptable, if barely.

Well...If detected the detector is not flat footed, so the sneak has a AB of ~35 and has no bonus from the enemy being flat footed while the detector has an AB of ~45... Isn't it a good thing if the detector has a lower AC in order to detect the sneak?

Valefort wrote:"should you not have to be equally dedicated to detecting them?" Clearly not, detection has to be easier than stealth otherwise the only detectors would be druids, which would be anything but fair. As of now the situation is acceptable, if barely.

Again, you have 20 points to play with in order to always win against a sneak. If the sneak has 20 points more than the detector, that detector will eventually roll a 20 and 'win' the engagement. I agree the situation is currently acceptable, and would add that 'if barely' is the only way it can be, since even a couple points in the other direction makes it so the detector always wins, which is where we were before Avernus.

I'm going to take a screenshot of me with 101 Spot and post it every time a thread like this comes up.

Flasmix wrote:I'm going to take a screenshot of me with 101 Spot and post it every time a thread like this comes up.

Don't you play a high wisdom based druid with scent? The exception not the general rule of thumb.

YourMoveHolyMan wrote:

people that sneak don't get hide and move silently rolls,

Both sides get a roll. http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/How_Stealth_ ... tion_works

Not sure where you get the '+25' from for standing still. Not being snarky I don't understand, +20 on a roll of 20, yes, but where is the other five coming from?

Oh, sorry, standing still for a round (and staying still) gives you a +5 circumstance bonus to listen for as long as you are sitting still. I actually think it's pretty cool and makes sense for someone listening to get a bonus like that As for the belt I personally don't feel it puts a dedicated listener or spotter behind because feat bonuses if I recall correctly don't factor into the +50 bonus skill point cap (granted not everyone can hit that skillcap very easily it still saves you a feat )

As for both sides getting a roll as mentioned earlier it only happens when hostile is toggled much like grey orcs using scent can't actually see players on the minimap unless they are hostile to them. people being sneaky and listening in on secret conversations and such wouldn't be set hostile until they're caught so til then they aren't getting a roll.

YourMoveHolyMan wrote:Don't you play a high wisdom based druid with scent? The exception not the general rule of thumb.

Burn!

So far there is:
-Temple of Lathander in Beregost

Is there anywhere else where sneaks suffer a mechanical disadvantage?

YourMoveHolyMan wrote:Don't you play a high wisdom based druid with scent? The exception not the general rule of thumb.

Don't you sass me.

Flasmix wrote:I'm going to take a screenshot of me with 101 Spot and post it every time a thread like this comes up.

Yes, Wirg has achieved Stealth Proof.

as you would need a 121 in Hide to beat him.. good luck!

If non-druids with 10 wis want to have a detection skills of a druid then I'd like to have fighters AB, clerics saves, mages bigbys and fries on top of that.
Its ridiculous enough with every 2 seconds roll that means either you have 20 more in skill or you don't. Nothing between will almost never change an outcome - 19 more hide than opponents detection? Bad luck - just watch those rolls comming and be statistically detected in 40 seconds. Perhaps enough to run away but surely not enough for spying.

I'm going to take a screenshot of me with 101 Spot and post it every time a thread like this comes up.

There was a rumor years back of h/ms being capped at 99 and that once those skills progressed beyond it rolled over so that even if you could acheive 121 the game would recognize it as just '21'. Has QC ever tested such a rumor?

There are limits to what we can test... We can level PC's, but would need DM assistance to get to the point where we would hit those levels. That said, I once hit a bug accidentally before I joined QC and found out from Lisa what caused it. The bug caused several of my skills, including Hide and Move Silently to hit 100. I didn't get spotted at all in several areas so I can say at least that at 100 it does not cause you to flip to '0'.