Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

amber91 wrote:Maybe rather than present the solution (e.g. permadeath), we could start with discussing the problem that precipitated the suggestion? Do people not feel enough gravity in the RP atmosphere that they need to incorporate permanent character loss? What is the underlying issue you are trying to address?

Well, I don't really think that permadeath is THE solution...but the end chapter to what comes after Chapter 1, thus Chapter 2 until Chapter End-X, which could be helped to become more...valuable.

When you read a story, or watch a series, and your favorite Character dies...don't you feel it? Is that not very much missing on BGTSCC? At least, that aspect of the unexpected, surprise, and out-of-your-hands aspect? Because on BGTSCC, no PC, even NPCs, seem to die on chance.

It kinda goes towards something Chad rightly brings up, and that is that OOC knowledge has almost more value on this Server than RP Character value. But I ask: what is wrong with playing a few Characters, and they do die, at low level, as you OOC explore this Permanent World? I'm one of those "old timers," and I still haven't seen about 30% of the Server. Seriously.

In my opinion, Players play in a way that is directed by the OOC knowledge their Character doesn't ever really die, unless they themselves make that OOC decision. This paradigm creates a specific kind of RP that, I guess I can say, I disagree with.

I think it would be amazing to have higher consequence applied and considered in ones Role-play , just as any D&D PnP game would be. I realize that crashes and other things can happen and send a Character to Fugue. That's why I'm trying to think on an half-half solution, where we could propose a change that would bring more consideration to the "Living" part of our Characters (i.e. to stay alive!), but also wouldn't make for easy Character Loss, due to honest to goodness "mistakes."

I realize there are tons of mechanical "failures" that occur, and thus, most situations would not count against your "Lives." This is why I also simply suggest bringing Permastrikes back, full force. Even, for example, if you are involved in a PvP that has DM oversight, you may gain a Permastrike if your Character loses. Just like assassinations are managed, currently.

There could also be developed a kind of "Divine Intervention Token System," in which any and all PCs can "earn" a divine resurrection Token, as a DM Reward (if you are ever offered a DM reward). Or perhaps you can also purchase one, for gold. The trick would be any PC can only have 1 Token in their Inventory, at a time, and they are not tradeble. This could be incentive to RP like a mad, and earn such a token, or even grind like mad, to earn such a token, in order that you can save your PC from a Permastrike (or even Permadeath).

But at least something—be it RP only or mechanically based—that would put a Player up in their seat, and be concerned with their PC's life.

This post of mine is both about taking the responsibility of PC Death out of the hands of the Player, but also, putting great responsibility of the ONGOING LIFE of the PC, into the Players hands.

would stand around and never leave the fai.....except to walk back to my guild hall.. but i would prolly teleport because it would be safer.

I like your idea steve, but all it turns out to be is who is the Hardcorist...which already happens.. perhaps just a find a group/guild and agree to the ruleset you propose.. would be simple enough, except interactions with others not in the group would be different.

Rules or ideas like this are usually all or none.. and drive many players away..remember not everyone likes campfire rp.. some wanna go out and bash goblins on the head.

7threalm wrote:would stand around and never leave the fai.....except to walk back to my guild hall.. but i would prolly teleport because it would be safer

What I really like about this statement, is that it would TOTALLY define the Character.

And that is what my OP is about.

I'll quote one of my favorite characters.

“Yeah, no. Hell no. (do-me) no. Nein und abermals nein. Nyet. La. Siei,” Bobbie said, stopping when she ran out of languages. “And I’m actually a little pissed now.”

Permadeath ruins pretty much everything.

• Permanent death in Forgotten realms makes no (do-me) sense above what, level 5-7.
  Even when going with "You're only level 15 (with level 9 spells somehow)!!", you have more than enough favor with at least one random god, more than enough material possessions to afford coming back as many times as needed and more than enough drive to accept the call
• The primary purpose I play is the social aspect. Permadeath (do-me) that over. Even if someone claims "But you can socialise from start!" well.. likely people'd end up making half-assed reasons to meet with their old group once over.
• It cuts plotlines in half without resolution. It's already shitty enough when a DM drops out of a plotline they are running. If a Flagship character dies, that pretty much ruins multiple plots at once. As a DM, you NEED to have a flagship character who can rouse the people player-side to participate in your events and drive the storyline while you are in between events.
• You as a player cannot see the fulfilment of various storylines. In P&P, you get to see the same story unfold even if you die.
• It does not produce any RP. At all. People RP a death for like 1 week then forget about it. At most a few people will keep reminiscing and that's it.

Now you might go "If you so dislike permadeath, why play a character who gets into the whole Anti-Zhent/Thayan Team Good business?" A decent question, with a simple answer. You can do major damage to the opposing team without ever having to kill anyone. You just need to affect their reputation in a negative way in a prevalent enough way that it makes it impossible for them to do anything. The good thing about reputation destruction is that they can respond and recover from it, or maybe drag you down the way.

If I want permadeath, I've plenty of other RP games where the concept makes sense in the setting. They are also way less time intensive.

Conflict RP doesn't require anyone to die at all for it to be meaningful, and spreading the idea that it does only leads to disappointments.

Hoihe wrote:The primary purpose I play is the social aspect.

And why is it not possible for a social aspect to have collaborative consequence within the format of the social-ness, meaning, the game sandbox?

But if really, the reasoning behind the "no ways" is because your Character is an extension of the RL you, and you "hang out" with "your group" in a virtual SIM form, instead of on IRC, than yeah, I can see why you'd have having the challenge for your PC to stay alive.

Death is what you make of it, Steve. If you want to have limits on dying, put them on yourself. As you've so admirably done before. Not others.

I agree that consequences are too lax here, but this isn't the way to get them.

I play with a lot of people who believe in permanent consequences and perma death for their char should the occassion call for it.

I also play with people who just wont die at all and dont believe in consequences, but prefers to rp more sociably.

They are both cool and good people.

Let people decide themselves really, is a game afterall.

Deathgrowl wrote:Death is what you make of it, Steve. If you want to have limits on dying, put them on yourself. As you've so admirably done before. Not others.

I agree that consequences are too lax here, but this isn't the way to get them.

It is simply a different game, played in the same milieu...and that causes much more OOC decisions, even. But again, it is not about Death, as it is about Staying Alive. Get it?

So yes, staying alive, that act of doing so in this Canon environment, as well, has consequences.

BTW, don't drag this into some discussion that I'm saying those that want to play Immortal PCs are not cool or good people. I am simply challenging the nature of this game/Server, to see if it can sway back to a challenging environment.

EDIT:
If Permadeath is simply unpalatable for people, I can understand. I think there is a richer experience to RP if your Character's actions have greater consequence. It may be too difficult a challenge for some. That is why I am curious what it would take for people to feel rewarded—either during or after—for taking up such a challenge to RP, on this Server.

If you are sitting around with a group of people, one being the DM and the others being players, perma-death makes sense in the game mechanics... You've a full party going up against planned out challenges, some perhaps un-winnable by your group, but usually clear evidence that this is the case and you should try to get away/survive/not-get-caught rather than fight. Generally you might have 2-5 encounters between resting/safe zones and if someone falls the rest of the party might be able to afford/earn the right to have that character raised... Or in general the DM has you roll up a new character of similar level and finds a way to insert that new PC in to the story.

This game is not that. There is not and cannot be constant DM oversight. There is no knowing when you might be entering an area where you might get hit with some TPK save or die spell with a DC no one in your party can make (without meta-knowledge gained from experience on the server). Permanent Death simply doesn't make sense in the sandbox we play in. Certainly in DM events and certain PvP events it can make sense, and players generally agree on such when such events/RP lines begin. They would still try to 'win' the engagement, but should they lose they deal with whatever consequences as agreed upon. Mechanically enforced perma-death though has so many negatives as have been pointed out - none of which exist in PnP because it is not a video game - that it really doesn't enforce 'realism' or 'consequences' based on in game decisions. Instead it enforces OOC playing decisions to be made based on the knowledge that it is a video game with flaws that very well could kill your character due to a server hiccup, DDOS attack, Internet outage, spilled coffee on the keyboard, or random act of god. That doesn't bring fun, it brings frustration.

I personally would love to hear about other ideas that would enforce consequences, mechanically or by rule. I just don't think Perma-death is the right way to go, especially seeing as the server has experienced more growth in the last year or so than any time since I've been around. Pushing people away from the server really only serves to have fewer people to RP with, which would be a shame.

Now you might go "If you so dislike permadeath, why play a character who gets into the whole Anti-Zhent/Thayan Team Good business?" A decent question, with a simple answer. You can do major damage to the opposing team without ever having to kill anyone. You just need to affect their reputation in a negative way in a prevalent enough way that it makes it impossible for them to do anything. The good thing about reputation destruction is that they can respond and recover from it, or maybe drag you down the way.

I think Steve is pointing out that there is no point if there is no danger. And i agree. It's like talking poop to your fish. So what if you hurt the reputation of someone that cannot, due to rules, shut you up. Maybe you wouldnt be so quick to run your mouth if you could get smacked in it. No one will know.

aaron22 wrote:

Now you might go "If you so dislike permadeath, why play a character who gets into the whole Anti-Zhent/Thayan Team Good business?" A decent question, with a simple answer. You can do major damage to the opposing team without ever having to kill anyone. You just need to affect their reputation in a negative way in a prevalent enough way that it makes it impossible for them to do anything. The good thing about reputation destruction is that they can respond and recover from it, or maybe drag you down the way.

I think Steve is pointing out that there is no point if there is no danger. And i agree. It's like talking poop to your fish. So what if you hurt the reputation of someone that cannot, due to rules, shut you up. Maybe you wouldnt be so quick to run your mouth if you could get smacked in it. No one will know.

I honestly just avoid and don't RP with people who dare insult my character, then when caught out in the wild choose a forced RP out where by all means they should've been beat down and taught a lesson.

((("you will be hung for your misdeeds and I'll see to it that that happens, laughing all the while you swing from the noose!"

*catches them out of a safe zone*
"yea i'm just going to walk away from you, leave me alone. "

Google Translate:
"I'm in my safe bubble because the rules permit me to talk shite without getting hit so HA!"))))))

makes me feel like this server went from PG-13 to Nick JR.

Even so the server is still enjoyable as long as I avoid the safe space RPers


what can you do? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ keep playing and bite your lip if you don't enjoy it.

Is that really something that happens? Players 'talking smack' and then saying "I'm just going to keep walking" when called out in an unsafe area? I only ask because in my experience players that want to get involved in the conflict RP don't take such non-RP outs. If someone did, I would be forced to question if that wasn't breaking the 'play your sheet' rule since the character sheet would have an alignment which they were (hopefully) roleplaying when they called you out, by ignoring you later they ignored the same character details they RP'd earlier.

Different experiences for different folks, but that just seems like a severe edge case that I don't imagine happens, at least not often...maybe I'm a bit naive and it's a common occurrence though.

3 live like a Arcade Games but do you get more in the games like Arcade Games?

Personally im happy to (and have) taken Permastrikes for certain actions in game. Obviously if something like lag is involved then i don't think it should be relevant or fair but if there is a legitimate RP reason for my characters not to return from a death then oh well RCR it is. I have had many many characters die off in my years.

That being said i don't think forcing this kind of thing on people is fair. Some of us are more hardcore than others and i don't think it would be fair of any of us to tell someone else that their beloved character is permanently dead.

Also - Just remember you don't have to interact with certain people if you don't want to. there is nobody forcing you to. Move on, be polite and let others enjoy the game.