Ways to make a PURE Sorcerer more appealing

[chad878262]

I am not seeing why there needs to be incentive to stay pure sorcerer. Very few classes have a whole lot of incentive to stay completely pure. Even with the changes to Barbarian, Swashbuckler and to a lesser extent Rogue there is very little reason not to take levels in other classes. I highly doubt there are all that many 30th level pure Cleric's running around and even Wizard is likely to have at least some levels in one PRC or another. I would guess there are far more characters with 3 or 4 levels of Rogue than there are with 16+ levels of rogue and there are far more characters with 5 levels of Swashbuckler than there are with 16+.

Can someone explain why Sorcerer should specifically reward staying pure (over and above bonus Epic Feats) more than these other classes?

[Flights of Fantasy]

Because all the other base classes are already rewarded for staying pure while the sorcerer isn't. As far as numbers go, check my poll topic. The server statisticss from a year ago were posted and the results are very revealing.

[aaron22]

i must ask you diamondheart. do you play a sorc30 or on the way to a sorc 30? do you feel like it is playable in its current state to level 30? is it comparable to other base classes taken the same route?

[Flights of Fantasy]

Not on this server, no, or any for that matter. That's the point I'm trying to make. There's virtually no reason to play a Sorcerer 30. The most optimal sorcerer is one that multi-classes whenever it's possible. The only time I've played as a pure sorcerer was in the OCs and possessed Qara. As for whether it's playable or not is irrelevant. Of course it is playable as it is, but that's not the issue.

[Hawke]

I think perhaps you are looking at it as a glass half empty sort of way.

Instead of looking at "there is no incentive to stay pure sorcerer" maybe look at it as "there is no reason to not multiclass, anytime".

I just created a build for a sorcerer,, first time ever.. and let me tell you, I am nervous as all get up. But I think he will be ok. Maybe. Time will tell.

[aaron22]

Not on this server, no, or any for that matter. That's the point I'm trying to make. There's virtually no reason to play a Sorcerer 30. The most optimal sorcerer is one that multi-classes whenever it's possible. The only time I've played as a pure sorcerer was in the OCs and possessed Qara. As for whether it's playable or not is irrelevant. Of course it is playable as it is, but that's not the issue.

that is 100% relevant. if it wasnt playable then you have a complaint. nobody plays fighter to 30.. should they get feats? nobody plays swash to 30... should they too get stuff? almost all the base classes are not played to 30. sorc isnt being left behind because nobody plays it to 30. shifter druid is the only base class that is better off not taking any PrCs. does that mean every other base class needs stuff to put it on par with a shifter druid.... that is not making the game better.

[Flights of Fantasy]

that is 100% relevant. if it wasnt playable then you have a complaint. nobody plays fighter to 30.. should they get feats? nobody plays swash to 30... should they too get stuff? almost all the base classes are not played to 30. sorc isnt being left behind because nobody plays it to 30. shifter druid is the only base class that is better off not taking any PrCs. does that mean every other base class needs stuff to put it on par with a shifter druid.... that is not making the game better.

Pure fighters do get extra feats. They get a bonus combat related feat at levels 1, 2, then every other level thereafter until 20. They then get five bonus epic feats. A pure swashbuckler gets a bunch of feats that allow them to dance around their opponent, receive an INT bonus to attack, have more damaging criticals, and finish off with 6+ Dodge AC bonus & Luck of Heroes. Every base class (except Sorcerer) has plenty of incentive to stay pure.

And no, being a functional class is not relevant because it was never the point. No one ever claimed a sorcerer was unplayable. The point of this topic was the first point I brought up in my discussion topic: 1. Almost no reason to be a pure Sorcerer.

[Egg Shen]

But if all those perks you are referring to are so so great, then why is nobody playing the classes that have them to level 30?

There's obviously some disconnect here. If you want a sorc to be like other classes, then what you really want is a bunch of subpar fluff added to the sorc class that look like reasons to stay pure, but in fact pale in comparison to the power of multiclassing.

The end result will functionally be no different than what we have now. Your poll results would be the same.

[chad878262]

Pure fighters do get extra feats. They get a bonus combat related feat at levels 1, 2, then every other level thereafter until 20. They then get five bonus epic feats. A pure swashbuckler gets a bunch of feats that allow them to dance around their opponent, receive an INT bonus to attack, have more damaging criticals, and finish off with 6+ Dodge AC bonus & Luck of Heroes. Every base class (except Sorcerer) has plenty of incentive to stay pure.

And no, being a functional class is not relevant because it was never the point. No one ever claimed a sorcerer was unplayable. The point of this topic was the first point I brought up in my discussion topic: 1. Almost no reason to be a pure Sorcerer.

Fighters get feats, but Sorcerer's get SPELLS!!! By staying pure Fighters have many weaknesses. I would argue any Fighter build that doesn't include Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness would be better off with one of those two (much like Sorc is better with ASoC than without). I still don't get the argument as Aaron stated above there are very few classes that are better off staying pure than mixing in other classes/PRC's. You're argument is not really convincing IMO. SB is far better mixing in other classes than staying pure (Duelist at a minimum). You are talking about abilities that pure classes get, but when you compare those abilities against what they get from multi-classing it doesn't hold water. After all would you rather have +6 AC against one opponent for 30 levels of SB or up to +10 INT to AC (and the synergy to damage) from adding in Duelist?

[Flights of Fantasy]

Who said anything about Pures being better? The purpose for this topic wasn't that either. It's about creativing incentive to be a pure sorcerer at all where currently there is virtually none.

Yes, sorcerers do get spells and so do wizards who also get bonus feats, the ability to focus on a school that not only grants highers DCs for that school but also one extra spell per day for all spell levels (at a very small sacrifice of a school the wizard probably would never use anyway), the ability to scribe scrolls, and a far greater selection of spells.

[chad878262]

Wizards specializing in a school doesn't improve DCs. Regardless sorcerers are far from under powered and if going for a DC sorc arcane scholar is a poor choice. Better to grab archmage 4 and shadow adept 3 or even stay pure for 3 extra epic feats (+2 cha and epic spell focus).

Why improve a class that is tier 2 when there are others that struggle far more?

[Flights of Fantasy]

Thanks for correcting me on the DCs. I thought the point of focusing on one particular school was so you could cast them better, but maybe that's from Red Wizard.

I wouldn't call Sorcerer tier 2, though. As I mentioned earlier, someone posted the server stats from a year ago in the poll topic. Out of all the base classes, sorcerers are at the bottom of the barrel with Spirit Shamans, Swashbucklers, & Man-at-Arms(es?) respectfully. The numbers for Phantoms weren't available, but I'd be willing to wager they're at the bottom too because of the Ninja influence.

[CleverUsername123]

Who said anything about Pures being better? The purpose for this topic wasn't that either. It's about creativing incentive to be a pure sorcerer at all where currently there is virtually none.

Yes, sorcerers do get spells and so do wizards who also get bonus feats, the ability to focus on a school that not only grants highers DCs for that school but also one extra spell per day for all spell levels (at a very small sacrifice of a school the wizard probably would never use anyway), the ability to scribe scrolls, and a far greater selection of spells.

But why does there need to be incentive to stay pure? Why do you want people to stay pure?

[Flights of Fantasy]

I never said I wanted them to stay pure. I'm just saying there should be at least some incentive just like all the other base classes.

[Egg Shen]

You're right. We should argue about what sorts of boosts the sorcerer would need for a while, then have QC debate it internally, then get the coders to try to implement whatever they come up with, then have QC test it. If QC finds issues, we'll repeat the process. And, if after all of this We do the job well and get the balance right, sorcerer will be "just like all the other base classes." In other words, everybody will still multiclass because all the perks we worked so hard to come up with are in no way close to being as awesome as ASoC or Archmage or Palemaster or Eldritch Knight, etc.

The results of your ASoC poll would be EXACTLY THE SAME!

Why would we work on something that, even if we get it right, won't affect any change on the server?