Casting in Shapechange/Polymorph...is possible! What?!?

[Tsidkenu]

Spells like Globe of Invulnerability/Spell Mantle are supposed to block all magic at or below the specified level (0-4 in the case of Globe; xdx +x spell levels in the case of mantles). The difference is NWN2/Obsidian's implementation of Spell Resistance & Magic Immunity, as mentioned above, because all of a sudden spells with no SR check (like orbs and AoE clouds) now automatically bypass spell level immunity and spell absorption. I feel this is wrong.

In NWN1, every single hostile spell of levels 0-4 was blocked by Globe of Invulnerability (excepting breach/dispel, of course). It was the responsibility of the opposing caster to use breach/dispel/mords to rip those protections away or simply be unable to harm their opponent. Obsidian's implementation of No SR Check spells has turned them into "I-Win" buttons, something which I never have and never will enjoy nor exploit. Of course, that's the meta these days. If you want to be on top of your magic game, that is the kind of tactic you are forced to employ if all you want to do is win. I wish it were otherwise (like on Sigil where Spell Level Immunity will block those magics).

[metaquad4]

"Spell Immunity (Ex)
A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity."

They were probably looking at that.

Also, mantles only exist in the vacuum on nwn2. So, they are working as intended. I can't speak for globes as of yet, I haven't delved into research them.

[aaron22]

and i think that while you may know the words and movements to cast in human form this may not translate while speaking another language and in a different form. while it may be possible to cast while in forms i would think that you just dont know how to.

an iron golem may be able to make a PB&J but when you try it all you end up with is a bunch of ripped up bread stuck to giant iron peanut butter covered fingers and a smashed jar grape jelly.

[Steve]

Aaron, the quote I presented says one must be able to speak a language, any language, in that Form, to be able to cast.

Thus Horned Devil has the fundamental, physical aspects that allow somatic components. Remember, in Form, the PC retains their mental abilities, and thus "knows" how to say the Spells, as well.

Iron Golem would not be a casting Form.

[aaron22]

what i am saying is that the form may be capable but not with the knowledge you currently possess. the fine movements of a human and the verbal components may not translate in a one for one match. these fine details are why casting in human form and casting in devil form are not on an equal platform.

[Steve]

what i am saying is that the form may be capable but not with the knowledge you currently possess.

When you Shapechange/Polmorph, your toon doesn't forget things it knew in its original form—it is only physical.

the fine movements of a human and the verbal components may not translate in a one for one match. /quote]
Elves? Dwarves? Halflings? Gnomes? Planetouched? And wait for it...ORCS!!!!

these fine details are why casting in human form and casting in devil form are not on an equal platform.

Never said they were equal. Only both capable.

[aaron22]

well. being as i have no personal experience casting magical spells, i am only justifying a reason why these forms may not.

of course, in make believe world anything is possible. and possibly reasonable with any sort of imagination. i am sure it is from a power game standpoint that casting in form would be disallowed. clearly. perhaps it is possible to cast and do whatever you want, but would fall into the ASF100? that seems reasonable as well. but then we get the shapechanging gish builds with ASS1-9 and that would again be a power game no no.

[Nachti]

You shift for a reason.

And its not casting spells.

[Steve]

i am sure it is from a power game standpoint ...

This is why we have True Form spell.

[aaron22]

i am sure it is from a power game standpoint ...

This is why we have True Form spell.

d20+CL (max15) vs 11+CL

uh no thanks

[Steve]

Haha! Don't mess with my shapechanging Overgod!

[Sun Wukong]

Hidden: show

Okay, take this in.

I looked up 3.5e Shapechange, and it referred back to:

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.

I then looked up Polymorph, and it referred back to:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

I then looked up Alter Self, and it says:

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

Ergo...a Horned Devil has the ability to speak—known as Infernal—since it is a Greater Baatezu, yet one could say is ever more complex than the vocal needs requiring humanoid spellcasting

The stilted, formal, grating yet strangely melodic tongue of the greater baatezu is full of obscure patterns that seem to meander misleadingly before snapping to an unexpected point. Speaking it properly requires careful planning and the ability to respond intelligently to phrases based only on the most subtle of cues. It's said that two greater baatezu can hold entire conversations in this form of Infernal using only the beginnings of their sentences. It is nearly impossible for mortals to learn.

Additionally, a Horned Devil have limbs and dexterity of equal measure to what humanoid spellcasters require.

A Horned Devil form from Shapechange should be fully capable to cast spells, in the D&D 3.5e world.

Thus, I question the Rule against the Horned Devil form NOT being able to access the Quickcast menu, for casting, and bypassing whatever Obsidian did to stop that from happening. On the other hand, Nightwalkers communicate telepathically, so they can't cast spells that require somatic components. Obviously, Iron Golem doesn't probably have the dexterity for this. But, it is very possible that both Fire and Ice Giants forms are fully capable of casting!!

So, just because NWN2 Shapechange spell says "You cannot cast your spells while transformed. ", it don't actually mean that is the truth of it!

*rotten vegetable shields up at full*

You must be trolling me... Anyhow... This attempt of yours at fishing is successful - and thus I grant thee a response, an approximate image of the face I have right now:

Hmn... I wonder when you will go read about spell compoments and various forms of metamagic feats.

[Nachti]

As you all know the dnd pnp 3.5 system is not well balanced. Thats why we have custom limitations.

In case of shapechange & spellcasting I think that any dev or dm will agree on not allowing it.

Beside that, I havent read a novel where a mighty wizard shifted into a dragon just to continue casting magic.

Other forms are assumed to crash enemies their forms abilities.

[Face]

[quote="Nachti"]As you all know the dnd pnp 3.5 system is not well balanced. Thats why we have custom limitations.

In case of shapechange & spellcasting I think that any dev or dm will agree on not allowing it.

Tell that to all the druids lol.

[Hawke]

Well, all I am going to say on this topic is yes, PnP wizards can and do polymorph/shapechange to become far more powerful.

If it can speak, and you have access to your materials bag, and the extremities to cast, you are uber strong.

3.5, you got so stupidly powerful as a wizard, you could literally take on challenges meant for your team, all by yourself.

Pathfinder editions did a better job by adding +stats instead of changing all your ability scores, but 3.5 it could be and was often broken.

I know, because I did it. Not because I wanted to, but the other players were min/max munchkin builds, I had no choice so I could just keep up with the campaign.

Should it be done here? I don't know. Could it be abused? No more than druids I suppose. I mean...