A request for another avenue for HiPS

[Metro-Gnome]

Most of the suggestions so far are a little too cheap.

HiPS is supposed to require an investment. Currently you give up 2 useless feats and 3 levels into a prc or a significant level investment into another.

Some things in D&D aren't meant to synergize but actually require you to invest in a path you wouldn't normally take to learn something powerful (look at weapon master prerequisites)

I'm all for opening it up to pure rogues but building a sneak you already try to cram as much rogue in as possible because it's a powerful class with bonus fears and high dmg. This feat should require some investment into something without synergy.

[Deathgrowl]

Shadowdancer has synergy with rogue mainly because of hips. But Defensive Roll is something to consider: You can take rogue13/sd5 (and then have 12 more levels to play with) and get epic dodge. The alternative is rogue16/sd3, which leaves you with 11 levels left to play with. On the other hand, this makes shadowdancer synergise more with monk.

Shadowdancer is admittedly very lackluster beyond level 3 (and specially beyond level 5). If you take it to full 10 levels, you have all the feats required for epic dodge regardless of whatever you put in (say swashbuckler20/sd10 could get epic dodge if you wanted), but the class beyond that is unfortunately not very good. Compared to the palemaster summons, for instance, the shadowdancer's shadow is very weak, even at full 10 levels.

Shadow Daze synergises with dexterity for DC, but the caster level on it is only ever going to be 10, so anything with a little bit of spell resistance is going to just ignore the whole thing.

Shadow Evade is pretty decent at level 10. 3 times per day, 10 rounds, you get 4 dodge AC, 20% concealment and 10/adamantine DR.

But that is a digression. I've personally always been against giving pure rogue HiPS: It's a supernatural ability and rogue is a completely mundane class. Assassin has spell books and shadowdancer has various illusion abilities. More mechanically, it is also because HiPS is the kind of ability I prefer people having to invest 1 class slot and even levels into getting. You have to sacrifice something to get the best feat in the game.

I wouldn't be against giving, say, Wilderness Stalker ranger hips at level 10, for instance, though. It synergises well with rogue, as it progresses some sneak attack and has high BAB, which is nice. Some AC and camouflage is also cool.

But proper hips? I don't know if we really need more avenues for that. Assassin synergises perfectly with rogue already. I don't quite see a reason why we'd need one more PRC that does. What, exactly, does assassin lack in "fun" or "synergy" that you are looking for?

[Egg Shen]

Probably the role play concept of killing people for money. We should just rename it like we did with phantom, as it no longer requires evil, and perhaps that would alleviate any concerns. or maybe they are just tired of jamming the same class into every sneaker build. Variety is the spice of life and all that.

[Metro-Gnome]

I've personally always been against giving pure rogue HiPS: It's a supernatural ability and rogue is a completely mundane class. Assassin has spell books and shadowdancer has various illusion abilities. More mechanically, it is also because HiPS is the kind of ability I prefer people having to invest 1 class slot and even levels into getting. You have to sacrifice something to get the best feat in the game.

[...]

Assassin synergises perfectly with rogue already. I don't quite see a reason why we'd need one more PRC

Quoted this well worded and thought out response for emphasis. Well said.

[Storm Munin]

No rogue build must have HIPS to be played well and enjoyable.

Offer it as an optional feat for rogues from pure lv21, like rangers can pick Bane of enemies.

/M

[Mallore]

I love you have this well thought out.. jsut some thoughts of mine to see where im coming from.

Shadowdancer has synergy with rogue mainly because of hips. But Defensive Roll is something to consider: You can take rogue13/sd5 (and then have 12 more levels to play with) and get epic dodge. The alternative is rogue16/sd3, which leaves you with 11 levels left to play with. On the other hand, this makes shadowdancer synergise more with monk.

Shadowdancer is admittedly very lackluster beyond level 3 (and specially beyond level 5). If you take it to full 10 levels, you have all the feats required for epic dodge regardless of whatever you put in (say swashbuckler20/sd10 could get epic dodge if you wanted), but the class beyond that is unfortunately not very good. Compared to the palemaster summons, for instance, the shadowdancer's shadow is very weak, even at full 10 levels.

See my issue with the synergy of SD and Rogue is that you have to take three SD, with an over lap of evasion. Essentially to get HiPS with SD, a rogue has to Use 2 feats (to get the class) then has to drain 3 levels. granted the first level is hips, but must take 2 empty useless levels after that. Unlike if you where any other class the Evasion is atleast helpful but redundant on the rogue. thus why I say there is no synergy. Also unlike other classes where we are handing out progressive spellcasting, the rogue does not get progressive sa dice with the SD. Some sort of progressive SA dice ability would be nice, considering how we fluffed all the monster hp here.

I do think it would be cool to cut SD down to 5 or 6 levels, why is it 10 with so much empty space?

Shadow Daze synergises with dexterity for DC, but the caster level on it is only ever going to be 10, so anything with a little bit of spell resistance is going to just ignore the whole thing.

Problem is this ability breaks stealth. So if you failed, blah you where probably better off just SA dice. the dc save is 30.. at max? which is rather useless.

Shadow Evade is pretty decent at level 10. 3 times per day, 10 rounds, you get 4 dodge AC, 20% concealment and 10/adamantine DR.

I thought this was cool, though wish it was like other buffs and on a minute scale. when we upped the time on minutes in game it made buffs last longer, what it did not help was per round buffs like this. also I believe to get all that you have to take all 10 levels of SD. lesser levels are lesser bonus.

But that is a digression. I've personally always been against giving pure rogue HiPS: It's a supernatural ability and rogue is a completely mundane class. Assassin has spell books and shadowdancer has various illusion abilities. More mechanically, it is also because HiPS is the kind of ability I prefer people having to invest 1 class slot and even levels into getting. You have to sacrifice something to get the best feat in the game.

But hips is not a supernatural ability for rangers, its Ex.
I would think going 10 or 13 rogue is an investment.. however. I would be happy with a third prc though. one that is offers a bit more synergy with rogue and not really saying "assassin or nothing"

I wouldn't be against giving, say, Wilderness Stalker ranger hips at level 10, for instance, though. It synergises well with rogue, as it progresses some sneak attack and has high BAB, which is nice. Some AC and camouflage is also cool.

but it is still a ranger druid PRC and not the best thing like a new Roguey PrC.

But proper hips? I don't know if we really need more avenues for that. Assassin synergises perfectly with rogue already. I don't quite see a reason why we'd need one more PRC that does. What, exactly, does assassin lack in "fun" or "synergy" that you are looking for?

Assassin to me isnt rogue. its a murderer. it is not a theif. It is simply the role play. Its not easy to explain but basically assassins should be evil, murders for hire. Some people want to play cat burgerlers and spies and it would be neat to see abilities and bonuses reflective of that.

I do not see how another hips class would break the game or hurt. I think it be nice to have a more thieving flavor 10 level prc. I am kinda tired of feeling boxed into one of two build styles on this iconic class. We have a bunch of ways to be wizards and casters, a number of ways to be divine priests, or holy, unlimited ways to be all sorts of stuff. It feels rather limiting however to be a Theif =)

Also Shadow Dancer is not A Faerun thing its just been shoehorned in.. we do have source books with Faerun things for thieves and cool shadow abilities.. I like to see some of these options as well.


In the end, would more content hurt? I do not think so. There is no crazy teir 1 build going to come out of this, no crazy omg it will rule the server if we gave rogues hips. I do respect the idea you believe that HiPS is Super Natural ability and maybe thats a reason for rogues not to get this ability, but however if we are going to use that reason then we should consider PrC and ability options of faerun rogues that we do not have. Thus increasing the fun =)

[Mallore]

Probably the role play concept of killing people for money. We should just rename it like we did with phantom, as it no longer requires evil, and perhaps that would alleviate any concerns. or maybe they are just tired of jamming the same class into every sneaker build. Variety is the spice of life and all that.

this is it!


tired of using it!!!!!

can i get something new.


also yes assassin is a murder for money. maybe dont want to be one.

[metaquad4]

but [wilderness stalker] is still a ranger druid PRC and not the best thing like a new Roguey PrC.

Wilderness stalker is as much of a ranger PRC as shadowdancer is a rouge PRC. It has significant overlap with ranger abilities and would really not net a ranger that much (ranger already gets its 2 significant abilities). It works far better on a rouge.

[Metro-Gnome]

See my issue with the synergy of SD and Rogue is that you have to take three SD, with an over lap of evasion. Essentially to get HiPS with SD, a rogue has to Use 2 feats (to get the class) then has to drain 3 levels.

So really your problem isnt roleplay it's just inconvenience. You just don't want to invest in it or give up anything. You just want it handed to you. That's a far less compelling argument to me especially given how much more power it gives not having to compromise to get it

[chad878262]

I've brought this up before, but a big issue (for me anyway) is that Rogue PRC's often provide benefits you get from being a Rogue (Evasion, Defensive Roll, sneak dice, etc.) so often they aren't really 'worth it' for a rogue as much as they are for non-rogues. The Shadow Dancer is a great example of a PRC that benefits any other class more than it does Rogue. Obviously HiPS is what makes a Rogue powerful, but it also makes a Weapon Master powerful (land more crits) while being less expensive (already has to take Dodge/Mobility). Whiling Dervish has the same requirements as Shadow Dancer, and also grants evasion and defensive roll. Assassin and Guild Thief are really the only PRCs that advance sneak dice, grants abilities that mesh well with a rogue which they wouldn't otherwise gain (spells, poison use, bonus saves against poison and of course HiPS for Assassin, bonus feats and double speak for GT). Invisible Blade gives bleed damage which most epic content is immune to, Feint which is decent in the underdark, but near useless above and the one strong benefit of + INT (up to class level) to AC.

You look at the warrior PRC's and they are giving Fighters (or Barbarians or Man at Arms) things they can't get from being Fighters such as increased Will saves, bonuses to all saves, more damage from other sources, feats they may not otherwise qualify for, etc. You look at the feats/abilities gained from rogue-like PRC's and outside of HiPS and Assassin/Invisible Blade they give more to non-rogues than they do to Rogues. Or I guess you could say it differently by simply stating that taking Rogue-like PRC's benefits Warriors, Divines, and Arcane's by granting some of what a Rogue gets (evasion, defensive roll, uncanny dodge) and generally the cost is not nearly as high as the gain. However, a Rogue taking one of these PRC's already has evasion, uncanny dodge and can already get other abilities so generally is only taking a PRC for one or 2 abilities and the rest is wasted/duplicated. However, a rogue dipping in to a non-rogue type PRC loses sneak dice, access to increasing stealth and other skills and essentially becomes a non-rogue so they don't want too many levels. A warrior type can get really strong rogue-type abilities with 3-4 levels invested in rogue or PRC's while most warrior type abilities require significantly more investment. This is why M3ntalist has said in the past he always tries to fit Bodyguard in his rogue builds for 3 levels... That plus Invisible Blade, for example gives you 8 levels of high BAB, up to +5 AC and you still advance your sneak dice (even though bleed damage leaves a lot to be desired. The fact that Hide in the Shadows improves with Rogue levels is interesting and I plan on testing it out through levels without HiPS to see if that is anything of an equalizer....Just haven't had time to do so. If staying mostly pure Rogue, maybe with only 3-6 levels of dips (Such as Rogue 27/NWN3) using Hide in the Shadows works well enough than the discussion becomes less of an issue.

[Calodan]

The Rogue needs a feat intensive PRC that grants 5-10 levels of High BAB. Make it require Stealthy, SKill Focus Hide, Skill Focus Move Silently at least. DEX 20. BOOM. There you go. Not sure what the PRC would look like but what Rogues need is to have a PRC for them specifically that helps them to be better Rogues. Give it synergy bonuses to Pick Lock, Disable Device and maybe 1 or 2 more skills or something. Just a thought.

[Theodore01]

Has anyone tried 'Hide in the Shadows' recently ? (rogue get it at lv.7 for free)

It seems it is much more useful now.
(Don't know how it performs in in higher/epic areas yet.)

I really love the direction 'Hide in the Shadows' is going, maybe it needs a bit more tinkering,
but hopefully one day we could replace the crazy overpowered (I win button) HIPS with this feat.

[aaron22]

this sounds a lot like wanting your cake and eating it too. you want pure rogue. it doesnt provide HiPS. you want HiPS, but dont want to take the PrC that provides it.

you want rogue 30. you get rogue 30. it doesnt have HiPS.

[CrimsonMist]

Has anyone tried 'Hide in the Shadows' recently ? (rogue get it at lv.7 for free)

It seems it is much more useful now.
(Don't know how it performs in in higher/epic areas yet.)

I really love the direction 'Hide in the Shadows' is going, maybe it needs a bit more tinkering,
but hopefully one day we could replace the crazy overpowered (I win button) HIPS with this feat.

Going to try this myself - my rogue is definitely not much of a murderer.

[Mallore]

See my issue with the synergy of SD and Rogue is that you have to take three SD, with an over lap of evasion. Essentially to get HiPS with SD, a rogue has to Use 2 feats (to get the class) then has to drain 3 levels.

So really your problem isnt roleplay it's just inconvenience. You just don't want to invest in it or give up anything. You just want it handed to you. That's a far less compelling argument to me especially given how much more power it gives not having to compromise to get it

No. my real problem is that we have a wealth of Faerun lore for Theif based rp we do not use and instead shoe horn in SD which is Not Faerun.

Lines like "you just want it handed to you" is not helpful nor the truth, it is simply wrong and unfair to say. Perhaps re read my original post. I explain that there is limited build options and it forces you to those or rp you do not want. Why must I pick assassin? can I not have another choice beside the non synergy of SD?

There is plenty of compromise in letting it be a selected feat at level 10. or level 13.

though if that is not to your liking why would you be against the addition of another prc? there are plenty of FR specific ones we could use.

the idea its 'to cheep' is not true at all.

So do please remember this is also about the role play and the lack of feeling that it is properly supported.