Shadowdancer Ideas

[Blackman D]

Constantly comparing the server to PnP isn't going to help progress at all.

comparing things to pnp is a good start for a lot of things, changing classes to do something they dont normally do is arguably a lore change to which you said it was ok to compare to pnp... also to compare something requires a reference, the default reference for most of D&D is pnp, but the other side is the server to which you are trying to adapt something to

so it makes prefect sense... that being said

SD is a defensive class, anything with higher AB just doesnt fit it

bonus H/MS is excessive, trust me, you dont want to give my hin more H/MS than what she already has...

increasing shadow daze to base 15... idk, it would be... irrelevant? daze --sucks-- if you want to boost it then change it to a hard stun to enable sneak attacks and to actually stop people from doing anything (you can still hide and use items under daze)

if that gets done then x3 would be fine, on cooldown would probably be a bit much tho not that bad? if it was like a 5 min cd

1 min/lvl evade would be boss, it would become a normal defensive ability instead of a hard combat one, going from 3 mins total use to 30 mins

shadow jump is fine as is since its been changed to instant (from having to mark a spot) anything more is kinda pointless, SDs are not suppose to be able to travel that far thru shadows and can already jump to the other side of a map, giving them the ability to jump across multiple maps is just greedy

i would not mind a 2 or 3 min cd on it from 5 min tho

summons, the problem with the shadow is that its a shadow... you would have to insanely overpower a shadow to make it any good and that is what you are asking, the shadow is not weak by standards of a shadow, just weak compared to anything else because of the limitations of nwn2 and not having support for their shadow spawn ability, which summons more shadows when they kill someone - but buff it and it will still suck honestly, i already made it OP for a shadow and it was still bad, shadows simply suck

not against giving them shadow simulacrum tho, either as a SD 10 only ability with the normal shadow or replacing the normal shadow, still only a SD 10

[blacksoft]

Constantly comparing the server to PnP isn't going to help progress at all.

increasing shadow daze to base 15... idk, it would be... irrelevant? daze --sucks-- if you want to boost it then change it to a hard stun to enable sneak attacks and to actually stop people from doing anything (you can still hide and use items under daze)

if that gets done then x3 would be fine, on cooldown would probably be a bit much tho not that bad? if it was like a 5 min cd

1 min/lvl evade would be boss, it would become a normal defensive ability instead of a hard combat one, going from 3 mins total use to 30 mins

shadow jump is fine as is since its been changed to instant (from having to mark a spot) anything more is kinda pointless, SDs are not suppose to be able to travel that far thru shadows and can already jump to the other side of a map, giving them the ability to jump across multiple maps is just greedy

i would not mind a 2 or 3 min cd on it from 5 min tho

not against giving them shadow simulacrum tho, either as a SD 10 only ability with the normal shadow or replacing the normal shadow, still only a SD 10

Any recent news regarding possible buff per your comments?

[metaquad4]

I love the idea of improving this class, but I'd rather you guys work on improving existing abilities before going around adding more new stuff. BGtSCC has added tons of new content, picked several classes apart, changed spells - it can feel mind-boggling at times. So to reiterate, please improve this class, but could you work on what already exists before adding more to the soup?

Following up on this, since I saw this bumped:

The current useless abilities:
Summon Shadow, Shadow Daze, Shadow Evade.

Solutions:
*Shadow Evade: Change to 1 minute/shadowdancer level.
*Summon Shadow: Change to summoning a greater shadow at level 5, 2 greater shadows at level 7, and 2 copies of the caster at level 10. The shadows or the copies become invisible, unless they attack that round. If they do not attack for a round, they become invisible again.
*Shadow Daze: Change to a paralyze at level 7. Change to a stun and paralyze at level 10. Change DC to 10+Shadowdancer Level+Dex. (This ability should not be affected by SR, as it reportedly is?) At levels 6 and 9, give an additional use/day each.

--
Idea:
Add in Shadow Conjuration 3/Day using the Shadowdancer's level as the Caster Level at level 3.
Add in Greater Shadow Conjuration 2/Day using the Shadowdancer's level as the Caster Level at level 6.
Add in Shades 1/Day using the Shadowdancer's level as the Caster Level at level 9.

Give Spellcraft as a class skill (suggested below by Mallore).

[Zethrenx99]

We could remove shadow dancers.
DEATH TO HIPSTERS! ';..;'

But i may be bias >.>

I'd like the idea of scaling up their dc's and making their shadow summon more of a shadow double type ability. Something that really plays off of the being one with ones shadow idea. Also gives a nice little hook for kozakuran ninja type characters.

[Anrilor]

So the DC for shadow daze is 28 for amora, no idea how its calculated but once per day kinda seems like nothing, putting it on cooldown would be nice.

Shadow evade I would love to see as a min per level ability, 30 min after 3 castings would be better then the about 5 rounds it lasts now, it still lasts longer the 3 rounds, but still burns out quickly. Or again put it on a 10 min cooldown as a min per level ability, so investing all 10 levels allows you to keep it up basically permanently as you are giving up potentially 5d6 SA or spell casting abilities and slots to get it.

I'm more a fan of how the shadow summon is right now, only summoning a scaling shadow, because it is supposed to represent animating your shadow, rather then a true summoning from the shadow plane. This is where most of my rp comes from in explaining why she does it and why it's not inherently evil.l, which allows more people to accept it.

Secondly I don't like the idea of turning the SD into a summoning master with more then one shadow. Mostly because it would destroy the RP that I've built so far, and it doesn't make much sense because shadow dancers aren't really magical in the nature of their abilities, maybe tapping into some shadow realm magic, but not full blown summoning. My two cents on the summons.

Lastly on the summons perhaps rather then a large shadow at level 20. Maybe have it look like the character like another spell ive seen, shadow simulacrum I think.

The level 20 shadow is nice, could use a bit more AC imo but 50% concealment helps it be a bit tanky till you fight someone with blind fight or in epic areas where they flurry the 50% like nothing at times.

Shadow jump cooldown I think is perfect as is, and Amora abuses it regularly in RP.

[electric mayhem]

Those changes proposed Meta, they actually make the class sound fun to play!

[Scorpius]

Personally.. My character is shadowdancer and it is very good as it is. Some pretty nice builts can be made with it by fully getting all levels...

And some nice tweeks were already made like the shadow jump or whatever it is called...

I think it would only make it op to improve more...

The only real down side i think it has are...

Shadow daze
Only once a day... Really... and can be sr blocked.
Feels kind of a wasted skill.
Would be fun if it was one of those two choices
A- 3 times a day
Or
B- BYPASS SR


The second thing i think would need improvement is the articulate shadow skill... Since this is not a summon in the real pen and paper version, it would be nice to be able to animate it or not a bit like the way animal companion works... So we would still not be able to control it but
A shadow dancer could simply stop articulating it at will or make it move. Unless it is killed. Just like animal companion.

[Blackman D]

the DC is already 10 + SD + DEX, tho it seems to be base 11 since my SD has a 31 DC daze and not a 30 DC

a cooldown for a daze effect would be ok, a cooldown for anything stronger than daze would not be because daze is super weak and allows you to defend yourself even while under daze (again, hiding and using items are still possible) however paralysis and hard stuns you can do nothing, maybe uses per day more than the 1, but definitely not just a cooldown, unless the cooldown is fairly long to avoid spam/grieving possibilities

but as far as i know the SD daze uses the spell daze which is why the SR is an issue

the SD shadow is not inherently evil as per pnp, it is suppose to have the same alignment as the SD but it was easier to just have it neutral at the time - they are suppose to be closer to familiars than typical summons tho; when a familiar dies the caster gets depressed, when a shadow gets sent away the SD gets depressed

while i do rp my shadow as looking like my SD, there is no set rule that governs what the shadow looks like, and some people do not like it looking like them so that option has some rp issues

the issue with the shadows stats is that this is a game and not pnp, in pnp it would be godly because a high level shadow is one of the worse things you can fight especially after people start dying to it, but in a game where there is no shadow spawn ability, it will suck regardless of whats done to it, that and a shadows stats are really weak to begin with game wise, so that shadow already has abnormally high stats for a shadow just to make it decent

[Scorpius]

Well then if it was like a familiar it would be even better

[metaquad4]

Well then if it was like a familiar it would be even better

Entities in the familiar slot are mechanically incapable of attacking. That would actually be a nerf.

[Endelyon]

I'm not certain that the shadow is necessarily meant to be super strong anyway, it's more of a flavor summon/feature. I think we should move away from the idea that "everything that gets summoned will always be viable at every level range," as this is not supposed to be a core mechanic of most of these classes. For Palemaster, certainly it makes sense at least for them to be able to create some strong undead. Shadowdancers don't send their shadow out to tank monsters and rip them to shreds for them, if anything thematically the shadow summon feels like it's meant to be used as a bit of a distraction/diversion tactic.

I understand you're trying to empower the class in ways that fit with the mechanics it already has, I just don't like the idea of making it a strong summoner. Wizards and clerics are the setting's summoners, not slightly-magical-rogues.

For the Shadow Daze I actually agree we could tweak it a bit, though I don't understand your suggestion of making it stun + paralyze at level 10? Why would one or the other not be enough? They're both prevented by mind immunity, and mechanically almost identical (except that paralysis can be used to set a round-by-round DC that the user can try to break free from and is also countered by Freedom of Movement), but monsters don't really use Freedom of Movement anyway so I see these as functionally the same. Either way, I think they're not merited as Shadow Daze is supposed to be a representation of Shadow Illusion, which is a PNP ability that allows the Shadowdancer to create simple illusory images using shadow. However, Confusion does seem like an appropriate effect, and I think that the Daze becoming a confusion effect at a certain point would be a decent and fun change (the Shadowdancer using shadow tricks to convince monsters to hit their own allies sometimes!).

The DC, though, is already 10 + shadowdancer levels + dex mod just as you suggest it be changed to... this change to the DC has been made on BGTSCC since I first started here as far as I'm aware. As far as SR, it certainly should count, as this is a Spell-Like Ability:

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

I do think it should be on a cooldown (or at least maybe once per day every 2 Shadowdancer levels).

For Shadow Evade 1 minute/level is far too good, however again I think we could consider moving this to a cooldown (or an extra use per day per 2 Shadowdancer levels). I also think the concealment could go from 10/15/20 to 20/30/40, considering the maximum 10 round duration.

Honestly I think that Shadowdancer is already pretty good at 10 levels myself. It gives you access to Epic Dodge on builds combos that don't have access to it otherwise (like my Fighter 16/Rogue 4/Shadowdancer 10 crossbower that was one of the most superb characters I ever played).

I'm not convinced this one needs MUCH empowering, but bumping up those effects a little in the ways I mentioned might be on the table down the line. We also could do something like adding just a little sneak dice to it.. 2d6 or 3d6... maybe. I'll give it some thought.

[Scorpius]

Well on my part i was not suggesting any improvement to mke th shadow stronger. Rp wise it is good as it is.

I was simply suggesting if a SD could have a on /off swithch to animate or stop animating it. I ask this since you only have one summon per day and if you use the unsummon fonction you then have to rest in order to ummon it back. If you could simply make it stop being articulated, then go in town lets say and then put it back on when in a dangerous place instead of having to wit the rest countdown of lv 30 for exemple.
This is what i mean.

The only thing SD really need atm really

[sir_blacksoutalot]

Having hit lvl 10 SD, at the minimum I'd say this class needs three simple changes:

(1) Make the Shadow Evade feat instantaneous, just like HIPS triggers automatically. I consider this change essential.

(2) Change Shadow Jump from 5-minute cooldown to 2.5-minute cooldown. The current five minutes is so long that you almost forget you even have the feat.

(3) Adjust Shadow Summon to actually comply with commands issued. Currently, the shadow summon just stays close to caster. Setting to "Attack nearest" seems to have no effect.

Those are fairly simple changes, I would hope. And would go a long ways toward making this class a whole lot more viable.

[Blackman D]

sneak attack on SD simply doesnt fit the class, it has been suggested multiple times but SD is a defensive class and definitely shouldnt get SA dice and a free path to epic dodge

the summon really cant be logically made any stronger than what it currently is, literally cant, it would be way overkill for a shadow; but making it like an animal companion where it can be unsummoned and refunded to be summoned again would be a rather nice quality of life change -- and i never understood why they down graded familiars from nwn1 to nwn2, worse change ever

for daze; only one of them would be needed yes, im sort of against the idea of confusion because a confused target can still hit you and just not realize it... which goes against the whole idea of making them... not... hit you, so while i agree on the reasoning of why it would make sense it is still ultimately counter productive to its intended use

evade; yea 10 min evades was gonna be a stretch tho the bump in concealment would probably be more than plenty and its kinda hard to even notice concealment being useful for anything under 50%

but yea the original changes were made by me and luna maybe in 2011 ish?

[sir_blacksoutalot]

I've been playing a 10th level shadowdancer for a few levels into mid-epics. I really like the survivability provided by all the defensive feats, plus it helps qualify for the Epic Dodge feat.

What really bugs me is how the Shadow Evade feat operates. Sometimes I'd prefer to hold my ground and fight rather than slipping into the shadows with HiPS. But having to go through a full 6 seconds to cast Shadow Evade means I'm standing there getting pounded. Is there any reason we can't have this be an instantaneous feat, just like HiPS works? Shadowdancers are supposed to be fluid, and the way Evade works now is anything but smooth as silk.