Increase ammunition stack size.

[Rudolph]

This is a good suggestion, also the one about returning items. The thing is, throwing weapons are underpowered compared to other ranged weapons, since those have a medium which is more often than not heavily enchanted. For instance, archers get bows with +4 EB and +5 Mighty. That is +9 to damage and +4 to attack compared to thrower who uses axes for example. Both can get equally good ammunition.

I'm all in support of expanding the stack size of thrown ammo somewhat, but disagree with your underpowered point. Apart from Shuriken, all thrown weapons have the Mighty attribute with no cap and thanks to Brutal Throw this means that you could make a viable build with +10 STR dmg easily (and that's just one advantage of the feat). On top of that, +4 EB can actually be found on the most expensive shop axes - together with elemental or anti-undead damage that is comparable to most arrow bonuses. In my book, the highest damage archer possible is a thrower - at least I haven't seen a bowyer that could outdamage Marianne (my throwing toon). The downside is rather that throwing weapons are quite expensive. If they were boomerangs that come back, throwers would outperform archers, I believe. If boomerangs are implemented, they should at least be of somewhat lower quality than the best regular ammo - just like in the case of magic arrows, etc.

[V'rass]

This sounds good to me, not that i use ammunition though.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

This is a good suggestion, also the one about returning items. The thing is, throwing weapons are underpowered compared to other ranged weapons, since those have a medium which is more often than not heavily enchanted. For instance, archers get bows with +4 EB and +5 Mighty. That is +9 to damage and +4 to attack compared to thrower who uses axes for example. Both can get equally good ammunition.

I'm all in support of expanding the stack size of thrown ammo somewhat, but disagree with your underpowered point. Apart from Shuriken, all thrown weapons have the Mighty attribute with no cap and thanks to Brutal Throw this means that you could make a viable build with +10 STR dmg easily (and that's just one advantage of the feat). On top of that, +4 EB can actually be found on the most expensive shop axes - together with elemental or anti-undead damage that is comparable to most arrow bonuses. In my book, the highest damage archer possible is a thrower - at least I haven't seen a bowyer that could outdamage Marianne (my throwing toon). The downside is rather that throwing weapons are quite expensive. If they were boomerangs that come back, throwers would outperform archers, I believe. If boomerangs are implemented, they should at least be of somewhat lower quality than the best regular ammo - just like in the case of magic arrows, etc.

Strength, however, is a useless attribute on a ranged character, since you will want to have HiPS which is fueled by Dexterity.

[Rudolph]

Strength, however, is a useless attribute on a ranged character, since you will want to have HiPS which is fueled by Dexterity.

Agreed for most ranged fighters. But for a carefully constructed build there are viable non-Stealth options with high AB and decent AC. And then there is the option of lowish Stealth HiPS (ca. 65 with top gear) and STR... But yeah, archers still rule in general.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

It takes about 10 turns for my ranger to waste existing 50 axes stack. I have to open inventory after each fight and manually replace throwing axes, because there is no auto-replacement (like with bows or slings). If I won't manually replace ammunitions, my character just goes attacking unarmed, rapid shot turns off, and this is EXTREMELY annoying. I am not even complaining that 2/3 of my inventory are throwing axes.

[Blackman D]

for that you can just drag them to your quick bar slots and click a new stack when one hits 0

set like 2-3 or however many and its not as bad

[NegInfinity]

Strength, however, is a useless attribute on a ranged character, since you will want to have HiPS which is fueled by Dexterity.

An Axe thrower can use shields, and have uncapped Mighty attribute on thrown weapons. Add brutal throw to that, and you'll get decent damage.

The only issue is that ranged attack progression is still tied to dexterity, but you could get 11 ranger levels to solve this problem.

[Deathgrowl]

Strength, however, is a useless attribute on a ranged character, since you will want to have HiPS which is fueled by Dexterity.

Having such high hide/ms is only really useful in CvC and PvP. In most PvP content epic levels, you're fine with 60 hide/ms, which is easily achievable by much lower dexterity.

And strength is frankly never a useless attribute on a ranged character. The obvious time where it is useful, is with a Brutal Throw character, where it becomes AB. All thrown weapons (and sling) are auto-mighty, meaning they get full strength modifier to damage. Bows and crossbows can (and often do) have mighty trait, which lets you benefit from strength modifier up to the mighty value. For instance a longbow of magic +4 has a mighty value of 5. This means you benefit from up to 5 strength modifier, which is 10 damage on a manyshot.

I go at least 16 or 18 strength on any ranged character I make.

Only really crossbow snipers benefit so much more from dexterity than strength that it's worth letting strength drop lower. And crossbows are for peasants, so I don't make those.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Strength, however, is a useless attribute on a ranged character, since you will want to have HiPS which is fueled by Dexterity.

Having such high hide/ms is only really useful in CvC and PvP. In most PvP content epic levels, you're fine with 60 hide/ms, which is easily achievable by much lower dexterity.

And strength is frankly never a useless attribute on a ranged character. The obvious time where it is useful, is with a Brutal Throw character, where it becomes AB. All thrown weapons (and sling) are auto-mighty, meaning they get full strength modifier to damage. Bows and crossbows can (and often do) have mighty trait, which lets you benefit from strength modifier up to the mighty value. For instance a longbow of magic +4 has a mighty value of 5. This means you benefit from up to 5 strength modifier, which is 10 damage on a manyshot.

I go at least 16 or 18 strength on any ranged character I make.

Only really crossbow snipers benefit so much more from dexterity than strength that it's worth letting strength drop lower. And crossbows are for peasants, so I don't make those.

Obviously I didn't mean it is useless on a throwing character since we are already discussing the viability of such character.

[Sun Wukong]

This is a good suggestion, also the one about returning items. The thing is, throwing weapons are underpowered compared to other ranged weapons, since those have a medium which is more often than not heavily enchanted. For instance, archers get bows with +4 EB and +5 Mighty. That is +9 to damage and +4 to attack compared to thrower who uses axes for example. Both can get equally good ammunition.

Have you ever played a Ranger/Stormlord? Altough note that Northlander Hewing has changed since that build was made. You no longer get the Enchantment Bonus twice, and instead of only getting half of your attacks, you get 2/3s. Thus you can get 4 attacks with this build.

Then throwing damage:

Code: Select all

1d4 (Mundane 7 gp stack of darts)
+10 (Strength)
+ 1d8 (Shock Weapon) 
+ 1d8 (Sonic Weapon)
= 21.5~
(43~ with manyshot) 

Yeah, wouldn't mind bigger thrown weapon stacks, even if those get little buggy... Or working returning thrown weapons.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

No Bane of Enemies, would pass.

[Sun Wukong]

You can get your Bane of Enemies, by just going for 8 levels of Stormlord. So.. You can add your +5 Favored Enemy and 2d6 Bane of Enemy damage on top of that...

So what is it? 33.5~ per shot, and 67~ with Manyshot? (And these are just mundane darts... no elemental damage, etc..)

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Yeah, but you lose on Storm Avatar which is awesome. That's why I don't prefer Ranger/Stormlord builds, as they force you to lose one top feat from either class. It is a solid build, but for a dedicated ranged character there are better alternatives, at least from where I'm standing (I like to have high sneaking skills, as my builds always take PvP into account).

While we're at Stormlords, are they required to take specific deities, or they can go freely?

Edit : Talos must be deity choice.

[Storm Munin]

Shops selling unlimited ammo quivers at a price, done.

Else, allow larger stacks (with scaling weight).
Having 1-2 pages of inventory for ammo is limiting ranged characters as it is.


Throwing daggers anyone?
We got axes, shuriken and darts.
Not one throwing dagger (discounting prestige class caster feats), I dare say being able to toss a dagger is not restricted to the arcane.


/M

[PaulImposteur]

Shops selling unlimited ammo quivers at a price, done.

Else, allow larger stacks (with scaling weight).
Having 1-2 pages of inventory for ammo is limiting ranged characters as it is.


Throwing daggers anyone?
We got axes, shuriken and darts.
Not one throwing dagger (discounting prestige class caster feats), I dare say being able to toss a dagger is not restricted to the arcane.


/M

Totally agree with this. On my Archer, I haven't once ran out of arrows because I just restock insane amounts of quantities. It's not as though it's a money-sink, it's hardly any gold. It would be smart if we had merchant sold returning ammo of all kinds, that doesn't have any EB bonuses. Keep ammo with damage/EB bonuses as non-returning only. It'll more likely have people spend more money, since they won't have pages of arrows, and they'll see some unique magic arrows that they want.

This suggestion isn't really about balance or the lore. It's about making the gameplay fun. You never see an Archer run out of ammo now, and if this was implemented, you'd never see it in the future. What would change? Spending 60 gold to restack a whole inventory page that doesn't merit and RP or fun- it's just micromanaging.