Focused Discussion: Crafting

[mrm3ntalist]

If there's no end game purpose to craft items then I think all the work required to making a crafting system would be pointless - no one (or not many) would take advantage of it.

Going by the "crafting level progression" I gave, if someone puts months into "leveling" their ability to 30 - they should be able to craft an item that's superior to the hell shop IMO.

That is my concern. It is not really the crafting people want, but the end game items they can get. There will not be +4EB weapons with a number of different sources of 1d4 damage etc. At most one will be able to craft +4weapons with 1d4 damage. They will be able to craft plain +4AC items. Or +3 items with a skill.

[Calodan]

What I would propose is this.

Items with +2EB or AC of their type can have 4 max enchantments on them. IE say a Plate Armor +2 AC 10% fire immunity 3 STR 4 Spot?

Items with +3EB or AC of their type can have 3 max enchantments on them.

Items with +4EB or AC can have 2 max enchantments on them.

sorry Calodan, I can't support this. Divine/Arcane Gish and Paladin can then use the very best crafted gear (then cast GMW) while everyone else basically can't. Also as M3nt/AoS said the idea is not to make crafting the most powerful gear, it is to make it more customizable (i.e. if you use a weapon that is not available in various stores.)

That is the only thing wrong with what I proposed? EFFIN A! I like this. So AOS and Mentalist say nothing above +3? Starting from scratch. I agree. Fine by me.

Now Chad going off of what AOS and the others are thinking what does what I am thinking look like in compromise or discussion so to speak?

Also truth be told if I could get enchantments up to +3 for things not AC or EB I am winning no matter what. HELL even +2 stuff is useful to a FvS bruh. There is no doing things based off of my build because then nobody else would ever get a thing since the only way to nerf me is to remove my class entirely......Anything you do in crafting is going to lift up power builds more. Just a fact. So we have to go off of how much is acceptable if implemented rather than totally fearing the spearing of Kory yeah?

[chad878262]

ng by the "crafting level progression" I gave, if someone puts months into "leveling" their ability to 30 - they should be able to craft an item that's superior to the hell shop IMO.

There will not be anything implemented superior to Hell shop items.

As ever, I feel it is faulty logic to use absolutes such as "No one is ever going to use it if it is not the best". Simply put other than the RIG there is only ever going to be set/specific types of equipment available. If you want bonus sneak on weapons it has to be a dagger, short sword or kama...What if your Halfling Rogue uses a Mace like Regis? Why can't he have a Mace that gives a bonus to hide/move silently? Crafting would fill this niche (IMO). Your little mace wielding rogue finds a crafter, says what he wants, crafter explains what can be done and a deal is made (maybe). Perhaps this is a bad example, I forget if the merchant in the Blushing Mermaid actually does sell stealth maces... The point is, just because it is not as powerful as hell shop items does not mean it is not useful... It is definitely more powerful than what 90% of the players could ever hope to obtain a couple of years ago (when even getting a +4 weapon was very challenging).

If you want to use a specific weapon or armor, and you are not happy with what is available then enchanting will be a great boon. However, if anyone is hoping enchanting will allow them to throw gold in to getting the most powerful gear on the server they will simply be disappointed. I *think* all of QC is in agreement that *if* crafting is implemented, it will be done in a limited fashion to be weaker than what can be found or purchased. If that is not good enough, than we should not waste our time and resources. My hope and belief is that there are others (like me) who enjoy the potential for customized gear because if it is not available in shops, you at a minimum can craft something that will work for your specific character concept. As Chambordini says, nothing has been decided, but at the same time, balance must be considered and crafting items with multiple sources of extra damage would likely result in having to power up the content across the server. There is no reason to do that.

As to lifting up Powerbuilds, I don't really concern myself there... "Gish/Paladin" does not necessarily = powerbuild in any case. I am simply stating that someone who does not have access to GMW should be able to acquire an item of equal power level to someone who does have access to GMW.

[Calodan]

ng by the "crafting level progression" I gave, if someone puts months into "leveling" their ability to 30 - they should be able to craft an item that's superior to the hell shop IMO.

There will not be anything implemented superior to Hell shop items.

As ever, I feel it is faulty logic to use absolutes such as "No one is ever going to use it if it is not the best". Simply put other than the RIG there is only ever going to be set/specific types of equipment available. If you want bonus sneak on weapons it has to be a dagger, short sword or kama...What if your Halfling Rogue uses a Mace like Regis? Why can't he have a Mace that gives a bonus to hide/move silently? Crafting would fill this niche (IMO). Your little mace wielding rogue finds a crafter, says what he wants, crafter explains what can be done and a deal is made (maybe). Perhaps this is a bad example, I forget if the merchant in the Blushing Mermaid actually does sell stealth maces... The point is, just because it is not as powerful as hell shop items does not mean it is not useful... It is definitely more powerful than what 90% of the players could ever hope to obtain a couple of years ago (when even getting a +4 weapon was very challenging).

If you want to use a specific weapon or armor, and you are not happy with what is available then enchanting will be a great boon. However, if anyone is hoping enchanting will allow them to throw gold in to getting the most powerful gear on the server they will simply be disappointed. I *think* all of QC is in agreement that *if* crafting is implemented, it will be done in a limited fashion to be weaker than what can be found or purchased. If that is not good enough, than we should not waste our time and resources. My hope and belief is that there are others (like me) who enjoy the potential for customized gear because if it is not available in shops, you at a minimum can craft something that will work for your specific character concept. As Chambordini says, nothing has been decided, but at the same time, balance must be considered and crafting items with multiple sources of extra damage would likely result in having to power up the content across the server. There is no reason to do that.

As to lifting up Powerbuilds, I don't really concern myself there... "Gish/Paladin" does not necessarily = powerbuild in any case. I am simply stating that someone who does not have access to GMW should be able to acquire an item of equal power level to someone who does have access to GMW.

Okay so Trinity implemented SET items and they made it so UMD could not allow to BYPASS this. PISSED ME OFF SO I LEFT. However......what if we implanted this idea with items crafted for certain classes? Could it be possible to make sure that fighter items could be +4 with goodies but then FvS items could not? Or is this too big and too many loopholes? How could it be done? I mean how do we add that? Maybe the item has to have a DM present if it is for a non power divine build? So they can flag it to the players inventory making it a permanent item for that player only? This way we find a way to lift up melee and not divine caster? Special rules so to speak for builds that need the boost? Or too much over the top and too much work here?

OH AND IF THERE WAS ANYTHING I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO CRAFT IT IS ON HIT PROPERTIES! There are not enough of these things. I think that is the coolest thing ever having on hit properties. DC14 and 10% even is nice.

[PaulImposteur]

I like the idea of it being limited to plus three. However, I think it'd be fun if you could perhaps gather a material 1/week per an account to craft an epic item with RIG stats. Otherwise we're just back to looting dungeons after over-loading the AH with cheap +3 Items of all kinds.

On the other hand I think the whole crafting concept would kind of destroy the economics of the server. It should probably be limited to consumables. Though I think a lot of those consumables should come down in price to craft! Maybe we can make temporary runes of enchantment, or something. Akin to crafting weapon stats, except it casts a spell enhancing your current weapon sort of like Greater Magic Weapon. It would last x/uses then destroy itself. It'd last a full rest.

Another idea would be, maybe you can craft weapons/armor with good stats, but those stats will 'turn off' after x number of rests. Requiring you to go back to a blacksmith (Player) to repair it, restoring its stat buffs. This would create a money-sink that is constant, but still make looted Epic items more desirable for their permanence. Or maybe make the buff last a number of days rather than rests. Anything that would make items less permanent from this system.

[Calodan]

I like the idea of it being limited to plus three. However, I think it'd be fun if you could perhaps gather a material 1/week per an account to craft an epic item with RIG stats. Otherwise we're just back to looting dungeons after over-loading the AH with cheap +3 Items of all kinds.

On the other hand I think the whole crafting concept would kind of destroy the economics of the server. It should probably be limited to consumables. Though I think a lot of those consumables should come down in price to craft! Maybe we can make temporary runes of enchantment, or something. Akin to crafting weapon stats, except it casts a spell enhancing your current weapon sort of like Greater Magic Weapon. It would last x/uses then destroy itself. It'd last a full rest.

Another idea would be, maybe you can craft weapons/armor with good stats, but those stats will 'turn off' after x number of rests. Requiring you to go back to a blacksmith (Player) to repair it, restoring its stat buffs. This would create a money-sink that is constant, but still make looted Epic items more desirable for their permanence. Or maybe make the buff last a number of days rather than rests. Anything that would make items less permanent from this system.

You know I kind of like this......The idea that magic can fade....then let us introduce the idea of certain material holding enchantment longer yes? But with one caveat if it is high magical material then it takes up a enchantment slot?

[Aspect of Sorrow]

If there's no end game purpose to craft items then I think all the work required to making a crafting system would be pointless - no one (or not many) would take advantage of it.

Going by the "crafting level progression" I gave, if someone puts months into "leveling" their ability to 30 - they should be able to craft an item that's superior to the hell shop IMO.

The server, being medium-rp, has to find a balance in all it's systems. Optimizing a set of gear through crafting represents that mechanical element without overpowering self entitlement. The rewards for pushing a +3 on an item to +4 should squarely reside on the roleplaying or other awards presented by DMs on the merit of the opposite side of the coin at a cost of another feat, skill point / attribute point, etc that may be on the item before the DM's enumeration is involved.

[chad878262]

Scrolls and Master Alchemist Elixirs can already do this, but in my experience VERY FEW players are willing to make use of it... You could for instance purchase an elixir of GMW for ~1,500 gold or less which will make any weapon +4 for 4 hours of real time (unless server crashes or resets before that time is up). GMW also is not subject to dispels, yet I have had very little success in getting any interest from other players in buying such elixirs. Perhaps Pimple could comment if his experience is different, but I always assumed GMW elixirs would be far more popular when the cost to brew elixirs/potions was reduced (even though you can't get the CL high enough to get +5 weapons due to a cap on the crafting).

Point being, if players won't pay for this on player crafted elixirs or scrolls, why would they do so on a new rune used to enchant a weapon?

If we do it based on non-permanent enchanting, I think it'd be better to just have charges associated directly to the weapon. Otherwise we are just making a new potion / scroll crafting mechanic, right?

[Dagesh]

What about DM staff approval for certain stats on items? Allow players to get to +3 on items via a crafting system but also maintain a possibility to go higher using criteria established by staff which could allow a player to RP working on crafting and item over time.

[aaron22]

i voted yes, but i am hesitant because of the points made by vale

i have some ideas for doing this as well to perhaps make having the "end game" full set unlikely.

first you have mats:
these mats are the same mats you typically have in the game and they can be harvested using skills from "nodes" that are in the game. I will discuss "nodes" and harvesting later.

metal makes metal armor, metal helmets, metal shields and metal weapons.
wood would make wood weapons, bows and wood shields
hides would make hide armors, hide helmets, gauntlets, and boots
stone materials would make jewelry items. necklace, rings

you will have metal, wood, hide, and stone nodes. these nodes will be in 3 tiers. each one represented by a difficulty roll required to harvest from it. tier one nodes will have a difficulty rating of 20 and a single attempt to harvest from it would be a roll of d20+skill. tier 2 would have a DR of 35 and tier three, 50. the three tiers would also be represented by the number of "sockets" they can hold. a tier 1 mat would have 1 "socket". tier two, 2. tier 3, 3 "sockets". the "sockets" are how many embuements that a final model could hold at maximum.

at each tier you have can get a few different choices in each node. you would be very much most likely to get the base material but you could also get some uncommon or even rare or very rare materials. this would be like mining metal. most likely you would get an iron, but you could get cold iron or alchemcial silver. these would be considered uncommon but you could have a small chance at getting darksteel and an even smaller chance of getting mithral. this would work in a similar fashion with hides, woods and stone.

metal
common: iron
uncommon: cold iron, alchemical silver
rare: darksteel
very rare: mithral

wood (there are other woods in lore that could be added to give different effects like wierwood)
common: basic wood
uncommon: shederran
rare: duskwood
very rare: zalantar

hide
common: leather
uncommon: salamander, umber hulk
rare: wyvern
very rare: dragon

stone
common: copper
uncommon: silver
rare: gold
very rare: quicksilver

harvesting these nodes would take a certain skill for mining metals you would use your lore: dungeoneering skill. collecting the wood would take the lore: nature skill. gathering hides would take the set trap skill and collecting stone would require the search skill. Tier one nodes would only be CR1-10 areas and only tier 1 mats can be harvested from these nodes. tier one and two mats in 11-20 areas and tier one, two and three mats collected from CR 21-30 areas.

once these materials are collected then they must be fashioned. to make armor you use the craft armor skill to create the item using a mold and a purchasable recipe and following the recipe. the amount of skill needed to make an item corresponds with the tier of item you are trying to create. so a common tier 1 item would require a crafting roll of d20+skill against a DC of 20. for tier 2, 35. and tier 3 would have a DC of 50. for an uncommon mat you increase the DC 5. rare, 10. very rare, 15. so a tier 1 mithral shield, the crafter must roll d20+skill against a DC of 35. for a tier 3 mithral shield, the DC would be 65. critical success and failure is possible. critical success is where you beat the DC by 20 or more and a critical failure is when you fail by 20 or more. upon a critical success you create the item but do not lose one of your material components. if critical failure is done, then you do not create the item and lose all the mats to make it.

skills to craft
armors, shields, boots and gloves: craft armor
weapons and bows: craft weapon
craft necklaces and rings: craft jewelry

once an item is created that has slots now you must use alchemy to create essences to use for the slots. for the first slot a precious stone (rare gem) must be used to hold the enchantment. this list will be different than other it will have things the most common enhancements found on the server. the second slot will require a gem (very rare gem) to embue and will allow less common enchantments. the third slot will require a jewel (legendary gem) and will only allow a select few rare enchantments. I would want the selections of enchantments to be very selective and make it unable to get an item with greater values than can be found in our RIG. actually the RIG can create better because it can roll for values that enbueing cannot. so while you could get a +4 longsword on a tier 2 weapon you would not be able to get +6 on a tier 3. the selection would be unavailable. you could get keen and 1d4 acid and 1d4 sonic, but you could not get 1d4 sonic, 1d4 sonic and 1d4 sonic. it would have to be tailored to supply the right options without the ability to pile too much to make it better than RIG could offer.

to apply an embueing to an item, first a gem has to be embued. that will require the spell of enchantments applied by using a recipe for that specific enchantment. this will require a craft alchemy roll and the ability to use the enchantment spells available. the gem and there slot equivalency will correspond upon the DC. for a 1st slot gem a DC of 20 is required and for slot 2 gem, 35. and again a DC of 50 for a 3rd slot gem.

then to combine the items to complete the magical creation, you will need to use your craft weapon skill or craft wondrous item skill.

at the end. it would be next to impossible to complete a whole set of perfect gear. but you could have a piece or two that are yours and it would open a whole new market to the world. give RP a huge boost and really make the world come alive with a ton of options. All the while still not being as good as what the RIG can offer. just the ability to tailor. or better said... craft.

[Rinzler]

What about DM staff approval for certain stats on items? Allow players to get to +3 on items via a crafting system but also maintain a possibility to go higher using criteria established by staff which could allow a player to RP working on crafting and item over time.

Or like I mentioned earlier, an actual system to "work" on crafting rather than RP. I don't think elite items should be subject to DM subjectivity. For example, in the Underdark, where DMs don't exist, PCs would be unfairly hurt by this model.


EDIT:: I also don't see the point of being able to craft nothing but +3 items when +3 items hardly sell on the auction house as it is for 3,000gp.

[Steve]

Point being, if players won't pay for this on player crafted elixirs or scrolls, why would they do so on a new rune used to enchant a weapon?

Personally, my problem isn't NOT wanting to pay, it is a) finding that Player/Toon online when convenient for me, b) actually gaining that Coin to pay.

ATM, having +20 CL elixirs or scrolls is awesome. I just wish it wasn't tied only to PCs..., and, that I cannot just find those things as treasure.

THAT is different than the RIG, which CAN provide some pretty amazing stats on items, and this is great—a Constant System, like Enchanting, should never be better than the Random System. Otherwise, the Server dies. There is nothing like predictability to kill off a game, or a community.

[Rinzler]

There is nothing like predictability to kill off a game, or a community.

While I do agree with this statement, doing loot run after loot run and finding nothing is a bit frustrating as well.

[chad878262]

There is nothing like predictability to kill off a game, or a community.

While I do agree with this statement, doing loot run after loot run and finding nothing is a bit frustrating as well.

But at least there is a carrot. Without the carrot, the mule stops walking. If the player has everything they can get and DM events are not constantly available to them they will stop logging in.

[NegInfinity]

We're discussing how to best implement crafting for BG and we'd like everyone's opinion on the topic.
First of all, is crafting something the players want to see? Please vote accordingly in the poll.

Secondly, if you do want crafting, how would you like the system to exist? What does crafting even mean to you? Describe in posts below how your ideal crafting system would pan out.
Alternatively if you don't want crafting, give us your thoughts on the why.

Yes, I would want crafting. I had a concept of "Hellfire blacksmith" few years ago, which had to be ditched because of lack of crafting system.

I would advise to take a look at sigil's crafting model for inspiration. On sigil, craft weapon skill is tied in witch fletchery, meaning an archer will be building their own ammunition, to save coin.

Enchantment is tied up with "soul essences" which are used to apply enchantments to weapons. The thing is, essences need to be crafted using alchemy skill, from monster parts drops, which occurs in many areas, including low-level ones. This ties together alchemists, people who hunt monsters (because essences drop in areas with wildly varying CR - from CR 3 to CR 30, and some essences can only be found in one area).

Together this setup ties all players together in economy. A high level merchant routinely hires low level people and pays them for parts found in low-level areas (because those parts cannot be found anywhere else).

Not sure if it is "perfect", but it is good enough.

In general, I'd love for both magical and non-magical crafting to be useful and viable, meaning players hsould be able to use unique materials, and not just slap enchantments on generic weapons.