ECLs Max Level

[Sun Wukong]

Clearly we need level 32 humans

Level 33, 528,000 experience points is enough to reach level 33.

[Babuguuscooties]

Clearly we need level 32 humans

Only if we get level 32 half-elves...

[Valefort]

We only have ECL +2 races so max level 32, anyway that was a tongue in cheek comment. I'm not overly concerned by the ECL races, true they can be more powerful in the end but it's rather negligible in my opinion.

[Steve]

We only have ECL +2 races so max level 32, anyway that was a tongue in cheek comment. I'm not overly concerned by the ECL races, true they can be more powerful in the end but it's rather negligible in my opinion.

Says the guy that plays a Half-Elf!!!

That's like ECL -5 out the box, yo.

But, to the OP, its true that ECL races are more powerful, but you have penalties leveling up, plus, their SHOULD exist RP penalties, like non-acceptance and racism IG, but Players apply modern values to this Server, and thus NO DIFFICULTIES ONLY GOLDEN COOKIES FOR UOU AND ME!!!

[Babuguuscooties]

We only have ECL +2 races so max level 32, anyway that was a tongue in cheek comment. I'm not overly concerned by the ECL races, true they can be more powerful in the end but it's rather negligible in my opinion.

Says the guy that plays a Half-Elf!!!

That's like ECL -5 out the box, yo.

But, to the OP, its true that ECL races are more powerful, but you have penalties leveling up, plus, their SHOULD exist RP penalties, like non-acceptance and racism IG, but Players apply modern values to this Server, and thus NO DIFFICULTIES ONLY GOLDEN COOKIES FOR UOU AND ME!!!

Given how divisive prejudices are in American society today I can see how some people are sensitive to it even in a roleplay server... but I do not agree with it. Or rather, I agree with sensitivity irl, but in this server where it should not be an OOC thing I think it adds to the immersion if, for instance, drow are feared and hated by the surface dwellers.

Still, a lot of characters have been around for years it seems, and I imagine some of them have had experiences that changed their character's perspective - Even on drow. That's called character development. It should happen over a period of time.

[Steve]

Still, a lot of characters have been around for years it seems, and I imagine some of them have had experiences that changed their character's perspective - Even on drow. That's called character development. It should happen over a period of time.

Though this isn't the right Thread, I'll just touch on this real quick like: TOLERANCE IS TREASON!!!

But yes, every damn Forgotten Realms fan either loves the great tale of Drizzt Do Urden, or at least, has to frickin' put up with it. That said, Drizzt' surface life is not untili 1358 DR! And though there are many references to Drow on the Surface pre-Drizzt, let us not forget that the uneducated masses, even the educated masses, especially those that manipulate fears in order to drive social behavior even at the upper levels, are going to fear Drow killing them in their sleep.

Even if BGTSCC has had a handful of kind and responsible Drow on the Surface, making their better selves known and helping the forces of Good, you MUST realize that our PCs are but FRACTION of the existing People that live on the Coast. The adventurer class itself is so very often in the minority, but, we the Players do not easily perceive this in our gaming, because of the limit of the Engine and placed NPCs. Realize that Baldur's Gate should have 10,000 or more people in it!!!

I could go on, but what I'm saying has been said many times before and will again, should the proper topic get posted.

But back to the OP, Dagesh has a point about ECL, however, while valid, it probably will never be applied to making a change, because the Server is far to entrenched in the past—it would either have to be a game breaking issue, or an exploit, to be changed. Which it isn't, really. It's more along the lines of having the Favored Soul class on BGTSCC, which skews balance (and obviously, that class is sticking around!).

Not to mention I just love my cute little Svirfneblin!!!

[Babuguuscooties]

Still, a lot of characters have been around for years it seems, and I imagine some of them have had experiences that changed their character's perspective - Even on drow. That's called character development. It should happen over a period of time.

Though this isn't the right Thread, I'll just touch on this real quick like: TOLERANCE IS TREASON!!!

But yes, every damn Forgotten Realms fan either loves the great tale of Drizzt Do Urden, or at least, has to frickin' put up with it. That said, Drizzt' surface life is not untili 1358 DR! And though there are many references to Drow on the Surface pre-Drizzt, let us not forget that the uneducated masses, even the educated masses, especially those that manipulate fears in order to drive social behavior even at the upper levels, are going to fear Drow killing them in their sleep.

Even if BGTSCC has had a handful of kind and responsible Drow on the Surface, making their better selves known and helping the forces of Good, you MUST realize that our PCs are but FRACTION of the existing People that live on the Coast. The adventurer class itself is so very often in the minority, but, we the Players do not easily perceive this in our gaming, because of the limit of the Engine and placed NPCs. Realize that Baldur's Gate should have 10,000 or more people in it!!!

I could go on, but what I'm saying has been said many times before and will again, should the proper topic get posted.

But back to the OP, Dagesh has a point about ECL, however, while valid, it probably will never be applied to making a change, because the Server is far to entrenched in the past—it would either have to be a game breaking issue, or an exploit, to be changed. Which it isn't, really. It's more along the lines of having the Favored Soul class on BGTSCC, which skews balance (and obviously, that class is sticking around!).

Not to mention I just love my cute little Svirfneblin!!!

The way I look at it is the UD and the Surface dwellers are like opposing factions. They will rarely meet, but when they do its going to be tense and likely result in some confrontation. Of course, there are evil factions on the surface too, and likely a good faction in the UD as well? But yeah, the two big starting areas are surface and UD. So those two are clearly opposing forces.

[Ariella]

Humans are still the most powerful and most played race even with ELC races achieving a higher then 30 ELC. So from a balance perspective its a non issue, changing it will not positively effect game play or enjoyment.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

But it just means that for example when human with 10 000 xp has 4th level, aasimar with the same ammount of xp would have 3rd. When that human will reach his 30th level, aasimar will have 29th lvl and he will need 31 000 xp more to gain his 30th lvl. I don't think that his resistance 5/acid and torchlight spell are worth it. ECL means only recieving levels slower, not reducing their ammount.

But there is still something worth fixing imho. In terms of acquiring xp, the game considers technical level, not real. For example, in CR 2 location 2nd lvl human will be recieving more xp than 2th lvl aasimar (because technically this assimar has 3rd lvl).

[Laughingman]

But it just means that for example when human with 10 000 xp has 4th level, aasimar with the same ammount of xp would have 3rd. When that human will reach his 30th level, aasimar will have 29th lvl and he will need 31 000 xp more to gain his 30th lvl. I don't think that his resistance 5/acid and torchlight spell are worth it. ECL means only recieving levels slower, not reducing their ammount.

+4 ability scores is worth it though. XP is only time spent playing. If you are a level 30 human and they are only level 29 (level 30 effectively) and you both keep playing eventually they will reach 30 and you will not reach 31.

It would be balanced better is ecl was taken into account for PvP but that boat has sailed.

Hidden: show

This is why I hate drow that troll for PvP on the surface btw.

Maybe buff other races to help them out? no? ok.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

+4 ability scores is worth it though. XP is only time spent playing. If you are a level 30 human and they are only level 29 (level 30 effectively) and you both keep playing eventually they will reach 30 and you will not reach 31.

But reaching 30th level takes an enormous ammount of time. And at the early game one level penalty is much more sufficient than not having few bonus stats. Wood elves also have bonus +4 to stats (STR and AG are very useful for eveyone while WIS and especially CHA are very specific), but they have no penalty. I agree with the statement about drow spellresist though - it is imbalanced.

[chad878262]

We need a new item name in the RIG... "Dagesh's chapped backside"

Also, when we create BGtSCC real life commercial items, maybe a pair of ass-less chaps in Dagesh's honor?

Too far? sorry, I'll get on topic...

There is no issue with ECL races reaching level 30 in the vast majority of cases. Most of their bonus abilities are useful at lower levels and cease to be an issue at higher levels. Sure, Drow would lose one feat, possibly 2 depending on build by only reach 28 and would have lower SR, but otherwise it wouldn't be much different. ECL 1 might not be able to get the last level of some class to do certain splits, but little else would change... Of course the MAJOR hit would be requiring certain PRC's to reach CL30 and making it very difficult and in some cases impossible to hit CL32. This would be a hit that any caster type would seriously consider before making their character and may drive people away from playing ECL races for just about any caster type. CL28 is perfectly fine in PvE, but the stigma is still there that it is somehow unacceptable to end up with less than CL30.

The biggest issue I see with such a change is the fact that there are already (likely 100's) of level 30 ECL 1 and 2 characters already live on the server and some of them will no longer be the same builds if you knock them back to 28 or 29, thus we are back to full RCR which I do not think Admin or DM's want to open back up this quickly. Thus such a change is better left for a year or so down the road if we are thinking of doing another full RCR period. Even then, I don't think such a change is really necessary, though if it is made the impact will be slight, while upsetting a lot of people. I like my Tiefling Rogue/Monk, but would not be able to keep it at max level 29...it squeezes every little thing in and is a very tight build. Of course if the rules changed I would come up with some way to get almost as much as he gets in 30 levels out of 29, but would have to make a sacrifice somewhere. *shrug* if it were something that the majority of players wanted I'd be fine with it, but I really don't think it's necessary.

[Touri]

The only cap that would make sense mechanically is a XP-cap and not a lvl-cap. When you play any D&D campaigne the party will get xp and share it. Each party member gets the same xp. So it is the clear intention of the ECL to balance out the power of the races. Therefore ECL-races schould have less lvl at the cap. Actually it is the same for any xp penalty character. Because of the penalty they would always lvl up slower. Don't forget that D&D was never created for a endless persistant world game but for single adventures or campaigns where all the characters stay in one party and get nearly the same limited ammount of XP.
Lorewise the ECL makes no sense at all. In my opinion it is okay on a pw to let ECL races get to LVL30 as well. So this races and xp penalty characters show their superior power. But for sure it is not mechanically balanced and it kills the idea of ECL and the XP penalty.

[Rudolph]

I played on Sigil for a while, which enforces ECL level limits, but also has many more races with crazy ability bonuses (up to more than +10 ECL, too). Hardly any one there played the standard ECL races. It was pretty much either human or something quite whacky where the ability bonuses made the level cap worthwhile. Oh, and they didn't have the CL fix back then.

I think such an ECL enforcement would almost certainly reduce race diversity (whether that's desirable is another question) and have quite an effect on build designs, too. If it was done, the ECL races should get their ECL score as a CL bonus.

[Laughingman]

+4 ability scores is worth it though. XP is only time spent playing. If you are a level 30 human and they are only level 29 (level 30 effectively) and you both keep playing eventually they will reach 30 and you will not reach 31.

But reaching 30th level takes an enormous ammount of time. And at the early game one level penalty is much more sufficient than not having few bonus stats. Wood elves also have bonus +4 to stats (STR and AG are very useful for eveyone while WIS and especially CHA are very specific), but they have no penalty. I agree with the statement about drow spellresist though - it is imbalanced.

They have +4 attribute and -4 to other attributes. That is a penelty.

Time it takes to level from ECL 30 to ECL 32 is irrelevant as a penelty. Let a human level to 32 and they wouldn't call it a penelty.

Dwarves have a +2 to con and a -2 to Cha or dex. Con is incredibly specialized in it's usefulness on a server that favors DPS and spellcasting. They get a powerful class to compensate though so maybe there are other things to consider. Like I said though the boat has sailed can't change it now right?