Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Always trust Chambordini.

Another issue with some of the lore based guilds such as the Thieves Guild, the Harpers, Zhentarim, etc. is they also have very lore based activities which hampers their ability to RP in an environment such as this server.

Members of the Thieves Guild wouldn't be going out risking their necks on adventures and, though their members might, it would generally be with a group of adventurers, not guild mates... TG RP would very much be limited to within the city of Baldur's Gate and it's not like you can RP a heist without DM oversight

Same with the Harpers...while individual members might be 'adventurers' it's unlikely that a full group would leave the region to it's own devices while they go off traipsing about in some dungeon. They would need to have leadership and others at their home base, keeping an eye on the region and ready for a 'sending' should the need arise to form up.

Zhentarim would also be constantly trying to forward their plots and such. They'd not likely let their members leave for days/weeks at a time to go off adventuring.

I think this is why guilds such as Phoenix Company are popular (though I have never joined, they've been around under various names for a loooonnnnnggggg time). They accept any race/class combination and are supportive of adventurers. It is easy to say the various guilds/factions in lore can make RP for themselves, and I have been a part of such in the past, but without DM oversight one or the other group either tries to make something happen and gets called out for god modding or metagaming or the groups lose interest when they aren't able to bring a story line to any sort of conclusion. Player to player RP/events can work, but only in a somewhat limited fashion. In the end D&D requires a DM in PnP and by the same token this server requires a DM for certain actions to be meaningful and, in fact in order for them to even be attempted.

Possibly one thing that might be needed is to try to expand the DM Team beyond it's current numbers. Our player base now has got to be at least double, possibly triple what it was 2 years ago. A larger DM team would allow for more diverse support across the time zones as well as allowing for DM's to support various factions while still running one off events and random encounters, which I think everyone appreciates. Who knows, maybe the current round of recruiting was aiming to do just that.

Make all guilds great? sure. Just cannon guilds? no. We are here to create our own stories within the lore provided, luckly enough on BG that includes the ability to create your own unique guild and build it up to the position of guilds supported in lore. Why would we want to give that up? Or favor one over the other?. How would limiting our creative options increase enjoyment?.

Although its also had silent times The Halls of Inner Light has had more active players then any cannon guild i have ever played with.

The Phoenix company also has extensive dm attention with near weekly events. A perfect example of what happens when you combine consistent attention from DMs and committed guild leadership. The population doesn't "spike" the fall when the dm leaves because the dm isn't there for a month then gone for eleven.

chad878262 wrote:Another issue with some of the lore based guilds such as the Thieves Guild, the Harpers, Zhentarim, etc. is they also have very lore based activities which hampers their ability to RP in an environment such as this server.

Members of the Thieves Guild wouldn't be going out risking their necks on adventures and, though their members might, it would generally be with a group of adventurers, not guild mates... TG RP would very much be limited to within the city of Baldur's Gate and it's not like you can RP a heist without DM oversight

Same with the Harpers...while individual members might be 'adventurers' it's unlikely that a full group would leave the region to it's own devices while they go off traipsing about in some dungeon. They would need to have leadership and others at their home base, keeping an eye on the region and ready for a 'sending' should the need arise to form up.

Zhentarim would also be constantly trying to forward their plots and such. They'd not likely let their members leave for days/weeks at a time to go off adventuring.

I think this is why guilds such as Phoenix Company are popular (though I have never joined, they've been around under various names for a loooonnnnnggggg time). They accept any race/class combination and are supportive of adventurers. It is easy to say the various guilds/factions in lore can make RP for themselves, and I have been a part of such in the past, but without DM oversight one or the other group either tries to make something happen and gets called out for god modding or metagaming or the groups lose interest when they aren't able to bring a story line to any sort of conclusion. Player to player RP/events can work, but only in a somewhat limited fashion. In the end D&D requires a DM in PnP and by the same token this server requires a DM for certain actions to be meaningful and, in fact in order for them to even be attempted.

Possibly one thing that might be needed is to try to expand the DM Team beyond it's current numbers. Our player base now has got to be at least double, possibly triple what it was 2 years ago. A larger DM team would allow for more diverse support across the time zones as well as allowing for DM's to support various factions while still running one off events and random encounters, which I think everyone appreciates. Who knows, maybe the current round of recruiting was aiming to do just that.

WOW Phoenix Company! AKA T.R.U.S.T AKA Former Trillium Members LOL! Strong group of RPers who really changed the aspect of a guild during their time. So many guilds were not open to ALL. There were a ton of Canon Guilds and it was a often felt thing that guilds were hogging all DM rp. I think this is when guild specific DMs were no longer a thing since it created too much contention among the player base.

If you feel like getting a DMs attention now is hard back then for new players it was almost un-heard of.

Not sure we can really get a large DM team many of the ones who make great DMs are also the ones who keep guilds running.........Maybe it is high time to give Guild Leaders Quasi-DM permissions now. Ability to request NPC builds to use for their guild mates and create stories but not be able to reward their mates. IE can do everything a DM can but can not hand out XP, Items, RP power and such.

Although this is also already possible by making a dummy account and running NPCs from that account. I just think it would be nice if we guild leaders could spawn monsters and NPCs to run stories for our guilds. With a written up summary of our intentions and approval by DM team of course. Just so they know what is going within the realm as all gods should.....

Think about it. Guild leaders are able to take their members to DM maps and other things. This all goes through submission via the DM team. We can then work towards real RP goals that the DMs oversee. Have the new application DMs do this work. New DMs get the biggest work load. Going through guild story approvals, sifting through forum RP, doing biographies and the like while they learn the client.

@Asmodea: If you would be kind enough to maybe give examples of the pros/cons you've experienced in your Role, that could be helpful for those curious as to what it entails. Could be a good "advertisement" for new people to step up to joining/leading guilds, as well as a beginning reference to "what it takes." Cheers.

flipside43 wrote: What DMs could do that is useful is get control of an NPC atop the pyramid so if a player gets stuck in a leadership role that stagnates (they leave, are toxic, whatever), they can be removed or the guild restructured to promote influx of players again.

This. It really should be that DMs provide a constant and authoritative Leader to Canon Guilds, definitely, but could also work for Player-initiated Guilds. At least, to have a constant NPC that gives/take information helpful to the longevity of the Guild.

Just as an example: with the Whistling Wanderess, I always used Lorian the Cook to give the Players a reference point for Storyline—it was my form of a living/breathing Dungeonmaster. Also, it allowed me to breathe life into single NPC, which was fun for me as a DM (like actually playing a PC along with the other PCs, of whom I would have liked to RP a PC with).

Another example is the Windspells, currently, where Hesper the Innkeeper of the Blade & Stars has been a constant vehicle for DM Spartacus to give us quests and answer other questions. Easy and totally useful, even if Hesper is not at all a Leader or even member of the Windspells, a player-initiated guild.

Ariella wrote:Make all guilds great? sure. Just cannon guilds? no.

BTW, with the Title of the OP, I did not mean "just canon guilds." That is why canon is in parentheses.

However, I think canon lore is incredibly rich, we ARE in the Forgotten Realms, and thus canon lore and canon guilds should really sit above all else, at least to the extent that it doesn't stop or subvert other, non-lore guilds/storylines.

It is simply that I choose to play in the Forgotten Realms, because I like what is already there in terms of Lore, that somewhat limitation, but...just unfinished enough to let custom changes and new veins of storytelling, live.

That said, it seems rather obvious that at this moment in the Server's history, the actual canon lore guilds/factions are lacking activity, members, and raison d'etre. So I'm soliciting ideas of how to change that paradigm!

Well Steve, these guidelines might help?


Ban DMs and Admins who favor their player friends latest fancy over the lore and/or willfully harm existing guilds.
Ban DMs and Admins who willfully and intentionally act with disregard & discrimination against existing guilds/players.

Currently we do not, currently if a DM screws a guild or player over in favor of another guild/friends it is deemed official server lore.
At least one guild was partially lost that way, and we still have players on the server that no longer trust any DM.

/M

For avoidance of doubt I was not saying anything is wrong with Phoenix Company getting DM events or anything, my comments were only that they are likely popular because they support multiple types of RP and character concepts, like an adventurers guild and thus support old and new players alike with or without DM presence. I would argue that them having DM support is likely more to do with the fact that they can bring a force of players to an event. One of the key ingredients to ANY player getting DM support for any type of long term plot (personal or otherwise) is being inclusive of as many players as possible. The more players you can bring to a given event/series of event the more DM's are likely to support you, because the goal is to bring stories to as many players as possible, isn't it?

Every guild or player(s) that gets DM attention is a good thing, whoever they might be.
Respect and cooperation go a long way for us to shape our stories together.

I would not however support thinking only down the road of the most players around get DM attention Chad. Nor has that been a truth in the past.
Some beautiful things have been done in the past and supposedly in the now by smaller parties creating events and plots for others by their actions on the server.

/M

Not that it's very important in this context, but the Phoenix Company doesn't have weekly events or any DM attention that I know of, at this point. It's been a while. It definitely made a difference. Whether that's good or bad I'll leave to your imaginations :p

Storm Munin wrote: Ban DMs and Admins who favor their player friends latest fancy over the lore and/or willfully harm existing guilds.
Ban DMs and Admins who willfully and intentionally act with disregard & discrimination against existing guilds/players.

Currently we do not, currently if a DM screws a guild or player over in favor of another guild/friends it is deemed official server lore.

If you have evidence or even suspicion of DM corruption, PM this to the HDMs and Admins. You gain nothing from throwing seemingly baseless accusations at the DM team (or individual DMs) on the public forums.

Steve wrote:@Asmodea: If you would be kind enough to maybe give examples of the pros/cons you've experienced in your Role, that could be helpful for those curious as to what it entails. Could be a good "advertisement" for new people to step up to joining/leading guilds, as well as a beginning reference to "what it takes." Cheers.

I will try to keep this short, if anyone wants to chat more in depth feel free to poke me on IRC or PM or reply with more question. But for now! I would say that for the most part I have found the role to me occurs as kind of an RP matchmaker. I end up in position to help people integrate their RP into the community at large and help nudge or direct things in their favor. I find these kinds of things fun helping slot the right player into the right reputation/role. By knowing enough people and doing this kind of background direction enough times you end up with a lot of people who listen to your advice. These are the upsides.

The downside is that you have no actual power or control over people or RP or how events play out in the slightest and so all 'power' you have is just summarized to how much you can convince people to listen to you and make them think you are right and that what you are advising them to do is a productive or worthwhile task.

Being a 'Leader' in a long standing guild to me pretty much summarizes to helping herd players towards RP they like with others and soothing over any drama that crops up as much as possible.

PSA 2cents: I think a serious downfall of a lot of guilds is the disconnect between IC an OOC. ICly Guild Leader is big boss who everyone has to do what they say. OOCly Guild Leader is really a kind of civil servant constantly having to navigate keeping a large group of players happy with eachother. ICly it is: Do as I say. OOCly it is: What can I do for you? The IC and OOC dynamic are swapped. ICly members should be serving Leaders, OOCly Leaders should be serving members.

Anyway that's my after work haven't slept ramble.

Asmodea wrote:PSA 2cents: I think a serious downfall of a lot of guilds is the disconnect between IC an OOC. ICly Guild Leader is big boss who everyone has to do what they say. OOCly Guild Leader is really a kind of civil servant constantly having to navigate keeping a large group of players happy with eachother. ICly it is: Do as I say. OOCly it is: What can I do for you? The IC and OOC dynamic are swapped. ICly members should be serving Leaders, OOCly Leaders should be serving members.

I think this was well put.


Bregan D'aerthe is actually a lore guild but it's not under the 'canon' sub-forum, when it should be. But I won't raise a discussion about it as there's really no difference in how DMs treat canon and non-canon guilds these days.

In the UD, you just can't rely at DM attention - at all. Bregan D'aerthe was quiet but then grew when a few players invested more into it. A guild really needs a few active players to flourish and create an environment for the lesser actives to simply jump into when they're able to login and play.

Chad does make a good point of that some lore guilds have limited activities they can do together, especially those more secretive, intrigue guilds.

Glowfire wrote: In the UD, you just can't rely at DM attention - at all. Bregan D'aerthe was quiet but then grew when a few players invested more into it. A guild really needs a few active players to flourish and create an environment for the lesser actives to simply jump into when they're able to login and play.

Chad does make a good point of that some lore guilds have limited activities they can do together, especially those more secretive, intrigue guilds.

I am a firm believer that the best position for a guild to be in is a position whereby it has enough members and allies that people are able to entertain eachother to the point that it can hold mostly public regular RP where outsiders can duck in randomly and inclusively poke around it while the RP core maintains a distinct flavor of the guild it is centered around. This is more question of RPer density than DM attention or anything imo.

If you just get -enough- RPers in a room together regularly/semi-regularly RP falls out of the trees. (Sometimes what falls out is rocks known as drama as well but managing that is part of the game.)

In my opinion you need about 3 or 4 lifers (RP everyday or almost every day) involved, invested and feeling appreciated in a guild for it to really take off. I am sure there are ways to be less spontaneous and actually schedule things but it's never been my strong suit and I hardly understand how one could manage/float a guild that way (Though I am sure it can work).