Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Steve wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote: The facts on the other side are different.

I guess that means the facts you are arguing, which was the "system" already sucked but removing the ILR made it even worse!!! Lol.

There are no facts here, honestly, if that is the way you want to go about it. If we talk about a "Fact" that high level gear once IMPOSSIBLE to use on a Lowbie Toon is now "affordable," and that thus makes lowbies and Epics closer together, is a "good" thing, then you are actually mixing facts with your own personal opinion, and I guess preference.

Because the "fact" is that a Lowbie Toon, no matter what level of Gear, can never be objectively "closer" to epic Toons, in power. No way.

What removing IRL did was allow veteran players twink up Lowbie Toons, thus DRASTICALLY unbalancing the newbie to the oldie Player. Literally, unbalanced, thus not to far to say unfair.

The thing is M3nt, you promote the Lootz-Grindz system of gaming, which as you often do, state is the best way to achieve Epicness in gear. But that system is not even meaningful to Lowbie Toons or Newbie Players...they are literally trying to "figure out" how the Server works, and removing the IRL literally shows them that how it works is to utilize Epic Gear at low levels to, as Le Valefort correctly stated: "...low level mobs are being flattened."

If Epic Items create a paradigm where Lowbie Toons are now SERIOUSLY OVERPOWERED from 1–10 on BGTSCC, maybe what makes sense is to just remove those Areas from the Server, and have all PCs come in created at Level 11.

That seems more inline with your thinking, as I interpret it.

I dont know where you get that I promote the loots-grindz? Unless that is a label you want to put on me in order to help your arguments which i believe are weak.

You seem to believe that every veterans player end game is to make new characters and pwn lowbies... They can do it already with their epic characters. If a veteran players wants to grind past low levels fast, he can still do it as easy with item restrictions. On the other hand a low level player could never roll diplomacy, search, spot etc in a dm event, close to what an epic character can. Someone who doesnt want to level fast can still has some kind of use in dm events. Item level restrictions only promote faster leveling in order to use the item you want and become relevant. The specific scenario you use, about low level mobs becoming irrelevant is up to anyone play style. If a group of players want to enjoy low level mobs, they can choose not to mule high level items. However, they dont have any choice when in party with high level characters.

On a personal note, what i would like to promote, is less complaining and more moving on. What is it you used to say to players when you were head dm? Ah right... "Get with the program"

Valefort wrote:There's no easy answer there as Obsidian tied the ILR to the gold values of an item (both the total value and the most expensive itemproperty value) so I'll just give examples (I don't know how the value of an item is computed).

You can start using a +1 weapon at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at 10, +4 at 12.

Natural amulets, dodge boots, armors, shields :

+2 AC : level 5
+3 AC : level 7
+4 AC : level 9

Deflection AC :

+1 AC : level 2
+2 AC : level 5
+3 AC : level 8
+4 AC : level 10

Right, that seems the same levels i thought so. So the relevance of +1 and +2 items are up to level 5.

Two questions

1. Can the characters be immune ( AC higher than AB ) against mobs by equipping the max items at each level? Arent the mobs again irrelevant in this case too?
2. Is the benefit of having restrictions for the first 5 levels ( or so ) greater than a low level character being more relevant in the whole picture in this PW?

mrm3ntalist wrote: I dont know where you get that I promote the loots-grindz? Unless that is a label you want to put on me in order to help your arguments which i believe are weak.

Because you are fond of stating that Players can just get coin and purchase what they want from NPC merchants, plus the Hell Store. Even now, if you want the best non-Hell store gear for your Single Toon, a Player will need to amass 500,000 coin. How does one get 500k coin, eh? It's not going to come from just half-time gameplay adventuring.

Not to forget to mention that with the ILR removed, Items overall are losing their value, thus, even a low level lucky find is not going to make a Player rich. Anecdotally, I think it was 2 years of gaming on BGTSCC before I found a Mithral Full Plate, and sold it for 600,000 coin to a Vet that had millions but never had a Mith Plate. Before that sale, I probably never had more than 60k coin on my Character. 2 YEARS!!! And I play a lot....but I don't Loot-Grind.

So, if I am mistaken in interpreting you as promoting Looting-Grinding as a solution to getting Epic Items, then what is your preference for making coin on your Toons? In general, what do you promote as a Player to other Players as how to amass Coin to get Epic Items?

mrm3ntalist wrote:You seem to believe that every veterans player end game is to make new characters and pwn lowbies...

No, I believe vet players with lowbie tons with epic gear ruins it for newbies, and even other lowbies that don't have the epic gear yet to twink. I never said anything about pwning each other, but pwning the mobs.

mrm3ntalist wrote:If a veteran players wants to grind past low levels fast, he can still do it as easy with item restrictions.

Frickin' exactly, mate!! So why did the ILR get removed, then?? It just made it WORSE!!

mrm3ntalist wrote:On the other hand a low level player could never roll diplomacy, search, spot etc in a dm event, close to what an epic character can...However, they dont have any choice when in party with high level characters.

D&D was not designed to have Epic Level PCs with Lowbie Level PCs. DMs should be taking that into account, and separating the difficulties to appropriate CR events and storylines, else...well, that is another subject I have opinions about but is not this discussion topic.

mrm3ntalist wrote:On a personal note, what i would like to promote, is less complaining and more moving on. What is it you used to say to players when you were head dm? Ah right... "Get with the program"

Look at the pic, mate. "Less complaining and moving on"...right, like any good fascist would wish for.

i would love to see it re-implemented, but the old style was waaay too harsh. For example, Spell resist 18 items were worthless, by the time you could use them, they were useless. Lots of neat lowbie gear was not lowbie accessible until it was useless. Myabe if the old table were scaled back three or four levels, meaning level 2's could use regular +2 equipment.

There are also the technical issues of reversion.

ive noticed some big, awesome changes, like all armors being equalized, so banded male and scale mail are useful/valuable again. So good armor availability has doubled, which helps the economic consequences of a no level limit.

The scaling difficulty also helps... vets with mulable equipment. For noobs, it may make it worse. I remember my rogue builds having quite a hard time coping with their CR dungeons... ...while watching dwarves 2 levels lower sail through them.

So since i dont think level restrictions will come back, the best way help equalize is to inflate the value of potions and scrolls and usable/ 1 per day items, without inflating the price.

Doubling spell durations has been discussed before, and i think potion/scroll/spell doubling duration would help.

being able to twink 28 SR items is one of the big problems though without ILR.

Steve wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote: I dont know where you get that I promote the loots-grindz? Unless that is a label you want to put on me in order to help your arguments which i believe are weak.

Because you are fond of stating that Players can just get coin and purchase what they want from NPC merchants, plus the Hell Store. Even now, if you want the best non-Hell store gear for your Single Toon, a Player will need to amass 500,000 coin. How does one get 500k coin, eh? It's not going to come from just half-time gameplay adventuring.

Thats how you get items, though. Loot and get them. Unless you propose to hand them out freely, that the only way to get them. How you go from that to promoting loots-grindz, is a leap the every gymnast would be jealous of

Not to forget to mention that with the ILR removed, Items overall are losing their value, thus, even a low level lucky find is not going to make a Player rich. Anecdotally, I think it was 2 years of gaming on BGTSCC before I found a Mithral Full Plate, and sold it for 600,000 coin to a Vet that had millions but never had a Mith Plate. Before that sale, I probably never had more than 60k coin on my Character. 2 YEARS!!! And I play a lot....but I don't Loot-Grind.

Losing their value means they can be bought easier now. Less grind.

So, if I am mistaken in interpreting you as promoting Looting-Grinding as a solution to getting Epic Items, then what is your preference for making coin on your Toons? In general, what do you promote as a Player to other Players as how to amass Coin to get Epic Items?

Yes, you are mistaken.

mrm3ntalist wrote:You seem to believe that every veterans player end game is to make new characters and pwn lowbies...

No, I believe vet players with lowbie tons with epic gear ruins it for newbies, and even other lowbies that don't have the epic gear yet to twink. I never said anything about pwning each other, but pwning the mobs.

It can be done with ILR

mrm3ntalist wrote:If a veteran players wants to grind past low levels fast, he can still do it as easy with item restrictions.

Frickin' exactly, mate!! So why did the ILR get removed, then?? It just made it WORSE!!

It has been explained in the past before. Some of the reasons are:
- SR items
- Work involved to balance level restrictions
- players who choose to play characters without worrying about leveling.

mrm3ntalist wrote:On the other hand a low level player could never roll diplomacy, search, spot etc in a dm event, close to what an epic character can...However, they dont have any choice when in party with high level characters.

D&D was not designed to have Epic Level PCs with Lowbie Level PCs. DMs should be taking that into account, and separating the difficulties to appropriate CR events and storylines, else...well, that is another subject I have opinions about but is not this discussion topic.

nwn2 has nothing to do with the classical concept of DnD. nwn2 is a real time, online game which the majority of concepts and rules of DnD dont even apply

mrm3ntalist wrote:On a personal note, what i would like to promote, is less complaining and more moving on. What is it you used to say to players when you were head dm? Ah right... "Get with the program"

Hidden: show

Look at the pic, mate. "Less complaining and moving on"...right, like any good fascist would wish for.

I guess i have to add that to the list of name i have been called . And the image you posted, was a pm. Among other "beauties" you spilled as an hdm.

Pimple wrote:

aaron22 wrote:unicorns and fireballs dont make sense either. lets get that excuse out of here.

In this setting they do. That's no excuse, that's just the reality we're playing, and that's something you can bring into RP. If level restrictions are or were a thing I think it should have to come with an explanation that is applicable in RP. Otherwise it does more harm than good.

Lets say you are like hoihe, really into weapons etc. you trained with broadswords, and then you find one with a faint blue glow....


...a fighter cant just cast spells with wands and scroll, without umd skill, so i dont see why he would be able to suddenly start swinging around a highly enchanted sword and get the full benefits.



which brings me to a great idea, if it is techncally possible. (probably isn't), but instead of limiting items to level, limit the amount of enchantmet that can be used. For example, a level 5 would have a +2 armor/weapon enchant limit, SR 18 limit, and skill +3 limit. so if they had a sword with +4 enhancement, +4 listen, SR22 and +3 deflect, they could eqiuip it, but would only effectively get +2 deflect and enhance, +3 listen, and 18 SR, until it reached the next level that allowed better utilization.

This way, chars already twinked out could still use the gear, and so the messiness of "invalid characters" would be avoided. It would limit twinked out characters smashing everything, but still allow noobs to use nice, bonus stacked gear. For example, when ILR existed, id oft find a robe, say +2 armor, +1 WIS and +1 DEX, Great for a level 5 monk! But the ILR added the value of those together, and restricted to level 8... ..and god forbid it had 5% acid resist or something.. then it would require level 10 or worse. that restriction made the item completely usesless. Without ILR, STILL usesless... ..a +3 or +4 robe is still better.

Spells themselves would still give full benefit, ie, mage armor would alwas give 4 armor, regardless of the characters restrictions.

1. Can the characters be immune ( AC higher than AB ) against mobs by equipping the max items at each level? Arent the mobs again irrelevant in this case too?
2. Is the benefit of having restrictions for the first 5 levels ( or so ) greater than a low level character being more relevant in the whole picture in this PW?

1. No, at the very least it depends on builds and proficiencies and UMD scores at low levels.
2. I can't really say, either way I don't want ILR back.

I remember when ILR happened, and at the time I recall thinking "hey great, now I don't have to wait to use these things I've been carrying around forever (as there was no storage at that time)
That feeling went away super quick. With it went the element of having any actual concern for the safety of my newly made toon, and the anticipation of slowly building my character, and feeling I achieved something when I could use that Mithral Mirror axe.

Now what it feels we have is a system which sadly caters to the instant gratification group of people. Your character can be born fully equipped, or has easy access to very good items, and has little or no fear of ever meeting an untimely death unless they go out of their way to make it happen.

Replay ability of the server has most definitely suffered.

The ability to build the best possible toons has become laughably easy, as has levelling (once you pocket five or so items with useless immune to spell effects you have 10k from vendor)
With 10k you can stroll into Mudds and walk out immune to most areas under level 15, as was mentioned earlier, and not argued by anyone I noticed.

My main took me forever to level to 30, including several RCRS, which used to be wipes, not handouts. Under the new system I built Palias to 30 in just a few months.
This is the result of the new system, and seems to be the main reason for ILR to stay:

Shortcuts: it provides a shorter route to playing a powerful toon, and seems geared toward satisfying a new player base, who may not even know what pnp is without looking it up. And sadly, though I am strongly for ILR, I can also understand if a decision had to be made to make things easier for new players.

I would like to add that I really like that there are boss toons spawning in zones. Even giving creatures a chance to have the ability to make good on their Threat of Death is a step in the right direction.
There's nothing more depressing than being attacked by creatures that haven't a chance to hurt you.

Valefort wrote: 1. No, at the very least it depends on builds and proficiencies and UMD scores at low levels.

Aside of builds and umd which will always be the case.

Even with restrictions in place, can i equip items on my level1 fighter and go to the graveguard and get to level 3 in a matter of hour(s)? For 100% certainty, potions can be used.

The faster leveling, is a myth. It can happen whether you can equip epic items or not. More importantly, one has the choice to do it, or not.

Why would we want ILR back in order for it to actually matter for the first 10 levels?
After that it doesnt matter one hoot, right?

Take into account that any knowledgeable player on this server can make lv8 more or less within a reset even while running hardcore mode concerning muling. Give it a dayshift if in slow grind/quest mode.

So, whats the point of reintroducing ILR?
Punishing the new players?

/M

Velaris wrote:Sadly, it seems like this is turning into mainly a back and forth, with very few separate voices now.

.

Want to make sure my possible solution does not get lost in the re-hash of the same arguments.

In essence, limit "how much" of the enchantments a low level can use. so a level 4 can eqip a +4 great axe with SR 28, but will only get +2 enchant and 18 SR from it until he reaches level 7' when he gets +3 of it, and SR 20 of it, and then at level 9 he'd be getting the full +4 of the enchantment, but only 22 SR, and so on, until say level 15, when he can fully utilize the greataxes SR at 28.


Also to counter-point the PnP argument.... DMs generally do not make +5 swords of 1000 truths available at level 3. The PnP environment generally consists of 3 or 4 players at the same level, and with loot tables that progress with them, not in a persistant world with hundreds of players and levels 1 to 30 intermixing. I am sure the reason PnP never bothered with item limitations is because it was never imagined it would ever come up, and i seriously doubt it ever did on anyones table top adventure.

To further add, part of the fun is adventuring with players at around the same level. I cant imagine anybody in PnP saying, "hey, Brads gonna play a level 25 dark paladin, and come adventure with our level 4 mage, cleric and thief... ...wouldnt that be awesome!? Imagine all the izi XP we'll get!"

Storm Munin wrote:Why would we want ILR back in order for it to actually matter for the first 10 levels?
M

Pretty much, except the first ten are personally my favorites... and where noobs play.

sorry for multi posting. posting from an ipad.

I voted no because of a few things:

1) When I play games, I usually look forward on playing new game + that allows me to get a higher advantage than my regular playthrough. I think this applies as well in here which I believe, it actually increases the replayability of games.

2) When I first started playing bgtscc, I was able to party up with vet players with high-end equipment, and they helped me to get through dungeon runs. We were able to cover more areas with higher CR-levels, allowing me to learn more about the places and monsters.

3) I don't think this will have any big impact to the economy. Sure, +1 and +2 weapons should hold more value, but think about it, how many players are constantly playing level 20+ vs players that are lvl 1-10? I've played quite long enough to say there's at least a ratio of 5/1 level 20+ players with respect to players 1-10 playing constantly. So sadly, there's a small amount of people that will be interested with that +1 weapon of yours.

I would say, if the people in the community really wants to control the inflated gold problem, there's a very effective measure to do that and all of these must be implemented:

1) Merchants have limited gold amount like Skyrim per server reset
2) Gold should have a weight
3) Gold sink to effectively wash all the gold in the server before implementing 1 & 2

Pardon me from digressing from the topic.

adobongmanok wrote:I've played quite long enough to say there's at least a ratio of 5/1 level 20+ players with respect to players 1-10 playing constantly.

Whenever i scrye, i see an even mix of +, ++, and +++'s, with only a sleight weight towards the +++'s. id say its more 30%, 30%, 40%.

mrm3ntalist wrote: And the image you posted, was a pm. Among other "beauties" you spilled as an hdm.

The image I posted was a Search I made on this Forum minutes after you put words in my mouth.

Furthermore, if you have an issue with my day as HDM, why don't you complain some more...or do you only have issue when others "complain," not yourself?

Thats how you get items, though. Loot and get them. Unless you propose to hand them out freely, that the only way to get them. How you go from that to promoting loots-grindz, is a leap the every gymnast would be jealous of

There is a difference between getting your Items of value at low levels by adventuring, versus telling Players to grind for loot so they can afford at 600k set of gear from the Hell shop, which is what I think you promote...and think is a good idea. Do you NOT think amassing lots of coin in order to shop in Hell is a good idea? How many times have you shopped there, now?

Losing their value means they can be bought easier now. Less grind.

Why did anyone want their Items to lose value? Who's wacky idea was that, to cause the Economy to collapes?

It has been explained in the past before. Some of the reasons are:
- SR items
- Work involved to balance level restrictions
- players who choose to play characters without worrying about leveling.

How were SR items a problem in the past? They are a huge problem now, in that a Level 1 can run around with a SR 32 cloak, and essentially shrug off most magic. You think THAT is a better/good idea? C'mon man!

nwn2 has nothing to do with the classical concept of DnD. nwn2 is a real time, online game which the majority of concepts and rules of DnD dont even apply

Honestly, you think this? If that is true, then we really do not see eye to eye any longer, and I will accept that your perception of what this Server should be, deviates very far from the core of the game (D&D 3.5e rules, if you're curious).

Cya M3nt.

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Storm Munin wrote:Why would we want ILR back in order for it to actually matter for the first 10 levels?
After that it doesnt matter one hoot, right?

Before the ILR, I had experienced many Items that could not be used until Level 21, the dwarven waraxe Mithral Mirror, for example. It was always a challenge and great anticipation to reach Level 21, and finally be able to experience the use of such a relic item.

So actually, ILR mattered into the Epics, and why is still matters to this day.

Steve wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote: And the image you posted, was a pm. Among other "beauties" you spilled as an hdm.

The image I posted was a Search I made on this Forum minutes after you put words in my mouth.

Furthermore, if you have an issue with my day as HDM, why don't you complain some more...or do you only have issue when others "complain," not yourself?

I am not complaining about your days and you know that very well. These were reminders. REad the post again. Contrary to others, we worked(?) well together, both as DM/player interactions and as DM/QC. Even when we still got different ideas back then, like the dispel fix

Thats how you get items, though. Loot and get them. Unless you propose to hand them out freely, that the only way to get them. How you go from that to promoting loots-grindz, is a leap the every gymnast would be jealous of

There is a difference between getting your Items of value at low levels by adventuring, versus telling Players to grind for loot so they can afford at 600k set of gear from the Hell shop, which is what I think you promote...and think is a good idea. Do you NOT think amassing lots of coin in order to shop in Hell is a good idea? How many times have you shopped there, now?

Contrary to amassing ammounts of gold and have nothing to do with it, or pay for 800k for mith plate of 400k for plain +4 boots etc? Those days are gone my friend. With less grind and less gold, you now can get items that you werent able in the past - ie you had to grind endlessly for them to drop or for someone to "trade only" in the forum auctions

Losing their value means they can be bought easier now. Less grind.

Why did anyone want their Items to lose value? Who's wacky idea was that, to cause the Economy to collapes?

The economy didnt collapse. On the contrary players/characters can do something with gold

It has been explained in the past before. Some of the reasons are:
- SR items
- Work involved to balance level restrictions
- players who choose to play characters without worrying about leveling.

How were SR items a problem in the past? They are a huge problem now, in that a Level 1 can run around with a SR 32 cloak, and essentially shrug off most magic. You think THAT is a better/good idea? C'mon man!

Cmon man?
Before ILR were removed, you could equip an SR28(?) belt from level 1. At the same time most SR items were useless since you could equip them on much higher levels that the sr made sense. That in addition to some points i mentioned before was the reason to begin discussions about the level restriction removal.

I would call this an issue.

nwn2 has nothing to do with the classical concept of DnD. nwn2 is a real time, online game which the majority of concepts and rules of DnD dont even apply

Honestly, you think this? If that is true, then we really do not see eye to eye any longer, and I will accept that your perception of what this Server should be, deviates very far from the core of the game (D&D 3.5e rules, if you're curious).

I will say it again. Nwn2 has nothing to do with DnD rules and the complexity of dnd.

The uses per day, the rest mechanics, most skills, most spells, most feats cannot apply on an online, realtime, multiplayer game. Most spells/feats etc are implemented differently than dnd, the mechanics can never be truly be balanced because the systems are based in DnD, the economy will never be balanced because of the same reasons. Nwn2 is a frankenstein. We are using bits and pieces to make something work like dnd.

Cya M3nt.

Cya