why is avernus the only epic shop that is hard to get too?

[Bad Omens]

#SAD!

To be honest, I thought it was lore breaking before my PC found a way to get down there. Now I can say, that is the single best piece of development I have ever seen on this server. It really is a masterwork by whomever created it. I think it would be a loss if it were taken away. Perhaps the shop might be taken out, to avoid OOC behavior but to be honest, I think that was even done kinda well.

I think maybe it ostracizes some of the good PCs, whom would never travel down there for the shop, or for any other reason but I think the best solution would be to create a planar gate for good characters, or perhaps fey gate for neutral (though I suspect the Druidic Guild acts to fill this need already).

Anyways, in the Team I trust.

[NeOmega]

#SAD!

To be honest, I thought it was lore breaking before my PC found a way to get down there. Now I can say, that is the single best piece of development I have ever seen on this server. It really is a masterwork by whomever created it. I think it would be a loss if it were taken away. Perhaps the shop might be taken out, to avoid OOC behavior but to be honest, I think that was even done kinda well.

I think maybe it ostracizes some of the good PCs, whom would never travel down there for the shop, or for any other reason but I think the best solution would be to create a planar gate for good characters, or perhaps fey gate for neutral (though I suspect the Druidic Guild acts to fill this need already).

Anyways, in the Team I trust.

So, having never played it, I dont have an opinion, man. Seriously. I hear some testimony, so ill have to check it out, before giving an opinion.

But I think the slums I was suggesting, with dangerous streets, would be cool for the the way to the epic thieve's shop. I mean, there are a ton of feats for fighting stealthy characters, but players OOC don't like them, because they can be so devastating. If there was an area with actual, heavily stealthed backstabbers... ..it could be as deadly as the hells. Be cool if it was a bunch of small slummy houses. (and if you could kill civilians, even cooler, but then.. so, yeah, but have them cowering and running during the fights.) Probably set in the upperdark. (which I haven't been to yet, either.)

[Lockonnow]

what about add the hell store in different places every time the server reset it is a new place on the server so ppeople say the rumore tell i have see a man with unique store

[NegInfinity]

There's currently discussion underway about possibly removing Avernus. The shop itself would not be removed (though it may be moved/broken up into smaller shops).

Nothing is set in stone just yet, but I think most people do agree that being able to go to the depths of the Nine Hells just to do some shopping is a little bit of a stretch when it comes to "suspension of disbelief."

I would prefer avernus to stay. The shop could be moved elsewhere.

If you check the lore, there are Mortals who live in avernus.

Despite Baator’s perils and generally unwelcoming
nature, a few mortals do make their permanent homes
here—in fact, some are even born and bred here.
Wizards and other knowledge seekers, mortals who
traffi c with devils, and clerics of evil deities or the
devils themselves sometimes choose to settle within
the Nine Hells. Called planars, these permanent
residents survive only at the pleasure of the local
diabolical authorities. Although deliberately choosing to
live in the Nine Hells is the very defi nition of madness,
some planars are capable of behaving as if they were
completely sane for extended periods of time.

In truth, any mortal who proves suffi ciently useful can fi nd
a place in Baator, since devils—though irrevocably evil—tend
to refrain from mindless destruction. Furthermore, the plane
is perhaps the best place to fi nd safety from good-aligned
enemies. Thus, for example, a cabal of evil wizards being
hunted on the Material Plane might provide the devils with
useful spells and magic items in return for safe harbor within
the bounds of Baator.

Also:

DARKSPINE
Despite the manifold dangers of Baator, a few stalwart adven-
turers and travelers always fi nd reasons to visit. Such intrepid
explorers used to journey through this gate-town when it was
located in the Outlands—the intermediate zone connecting
the Outer Planes to the various worlds of the Material Plane.
Always anxious to capture more souls, the devils coveted
Darkspine for both its proximity and its traffi c. After years of
planning, they managed to pull it suddenly into their realm
by means of mighty magic. Most of its inhabitants were then

imprisoned, slain, or tempted into surrendering their souls.
Now the ruins of Darkspine stand on the plains of Avernus
as a terrible reminder of diabolical power.
Darkspine boasts one extant tavern, known as the Pig and
Poke. Though the place seems deserted, its barkeep, a harvester
devil named Jebelam, can appear at a moment’s notice to
serve unwary customers. If she can’t tempt her patrons into
signing a Faustian pact, Jebelam at least fi les a report on their
apparent capabilities with one of the Dark Eight.

[mrm3ntalist]

Avernus is hands down, the best epic area the server has. Another masterwork of tfunke. I understand that some people dont like it, they make good points. This area is not in your face though - you dont get out of a tavern or a temple or a campfire and see it- , it takes the most time compared to any area to get to and as far as i can tell, it never is used in RP in a bad way.

I would hate for this area to go, because there is no better epic area to have a party and a challenge. It was a dm decision as well for this area to go in. It looks like there will be another decision for this area to go. If that happens and unless a similar area is made, personally i will look forward to another change in the dm team in order to ask for the area back.

[NegInfinity]

Avernus is hands down, the best epic area the server has. Another masterwork of tfunke. I understand that some people dont like it, they make good points. This area is not in your face though - you dont get out of a tavern or a temple or a campfire and see it- , it takes the most time compared to any area to get to and as far as i can tell, it never is used in RP in a bad way.

I would hate for this area to go, because there is no better epic area to have a party and a challenge. It was a dm decision as well for this area to go in. It looks like there will be another decision for this area to go. If that happens and unless a similar area is made, personally i will look forward to another change in the dm team in order to ask for the area back.

Yeah, I agree with taht one....

Mechanical challenge aside, planar aspect of D&D is something I find important and appealing, and Avernus is part of it. It shouldn't be all about playing whack a xvart and saving farmer's rat/badger/whatever. There should be an actual irredeemable evil and incredible danger somewhere where you can visit.

[Pimple]

I don't necessarily mind that Avernus is a map we can go to. And it's a nice map. But the placement of the epic shop has led to some strange RP recurring. I can't remember which player it was that mentioned this first, but there are other planes where trade is less problematic in RP, for example in the elemental planes the City of Brass on the Plane of Fire or the City of Glass on the Plane of Water, or even a dao trade outpost on the Plane of Earth. That would still be fantastic but at least you're not literally going to hell to pick up a few things.

That's the only part about it that sometimes is in your face, when players bring their very casual trips to the hells into RP like they were talking about the weather. Ideally, and without offering to lift a finger to do any of the work, I'd like to see the epic shop moved to one of those locations or the same things be made available through some other location too.

If we're already planeswalking it could easily be somewhere accessible from different very dangerous locations through portals, for example one could be placed in the Netherese Maze.

There are lots of possibilities. I don't know what the right one is. I'd hate to see Avernus go away, I'd hate to see the epic shop go away, but I'd love for the epic shop to be legitimately ICly more accessible in terms of alignment.

As for the question in the title of this thread, I think it makes more sense for all epic shops to be hard to get to than just the one.

[Glowfire]

There's currently discussion underway about possibly removing Avernus. The shop itself would not be removed (though it may be moved/broken up into smaller shops).

Nothing is set in stone just yet, but I think most people do agree that being able to go to the depths of the Nine Hells just to do some shopping is a little bit of a stretch when it comes to "suspension of disbelief."

...it's more than a little bit I don't even know how to RP around that. It's that bad.

That's the only part about it that sometimes is in your face, when players bring their very casual trips to the hells into RP like they were talking about the weather.

That's the issue as I perceive it...

[Your best friend]

There's currently discussion underway about possibly removing Avernus. The shop itself would not be removed (though it may be moved/broken up into smaller shops).

Nothing is set in stone just yet, but I think most people do agree that being able to go to the depths of the Nine Hells just to do some shopping is a little bit of a stretch when it comes to "suspension of disbelief."

I could get behind this. Instead, how about giving the Black Network a store? You know, it is one of the largest trade organizations in Faerun.

[Flasmix]

Avernus is rather silly. You get a warning about how dangerous it is and you might not be able to return, but if you're level 30 and finished your shopping... you just kill yourself and respawn at starting location. No harm done.

[mrm3ntalist]

Avernus is rather silly. You get a warning about how dangerous it is and you might not be able to return, but if you're level 30 and finished your shopping... you just kill yourself and respawn at starting location. No harm done.

Here we go... Is that an area issue? Is that any different than dying anywhere else on the map and respawning like nothing happened.

Its one thing to not like the area, another to use ooc behavior that happens everywhere else to justify your opinion. That is rather silly

There's currently discussion underway about possibly removing Avernus. The shop itself would not be removed (though it may be moved/broken up into smaller shops).

Nothing is set in stone just yet, but I think most people do agree that being able to go to the depths of the Nine Hells just to do some shopping is a little bit of a stretch when it comes to "suspension of disbelief."

...it's more than a little bit I don't even know how to RP around that. It's that bad.

That's the only part about it that sometimes is in your face, when players bring their very casual trips to the hells into RP like they were talking about the weather.

That's the issue as I perceive it...

Where is the line drawn though? How does killing balors, dragoliches, minions of undead work for the "suspension of disbelief.". Casual trips to underdark ( or to the surface for drow ) etc? Are we to remove those as well, or is Avernus the only extreme where we draw a line?

[Flasmix]

I like the map, don't get me wrong. Perhaps I worded it incorrectly, I think the fact that you're warned about how dangerous it is and have to confirm you want to go there multiple times is silly when the means of escape is, as you say, the same as everywhere else.

You're always so hostile, cheer up.

[chad878262]

Where is the line drawn though? How does killing balors wielding nothing, but a Longsword and wearing only your birthday suit, dragoliches, minions of undead work for the "suspension of disbelief.". Casual trips to underdark ( or to the surface for drow ) etc? Are we to remove those as well, or is Avernus the only extreme where we draw a line?

Fixed...

[mrm3ntalist]

I like the map, don't get me wrong. Perhaps I worded it incorrectly, I think the fact that you're warned about how dangerous it is and have to confirm you want to go there multiple times is silly when the means of escape is, as you say, the same as everywhere else.

You're always so hostile, cheer up.

Yes, because you call something silly, something that someone else did a lot of work, for no reason at all. Avernus ( the area ) is not silly. The behavior, that can happen on every other map, i agree can be silly.

Then i hear about the "suspension of belief" when things like that happen every day. Those things, you can deal with them in character. Someone says to you that he has been to avernus, or kills the balor everyday, or goodly orcs/drow on the surface/civilized areas, you can react to them as being liars, crazy etc.

Finally, one thing that really gets me, is when we want to remove a unique area ( there is no area for that CR/challenge level and so well designed ) when there is noone ( zero, nada, not one ) area designers currently that can create similar areas.

[Flasmix]

I think if your die in avernus, it locks you there until you can actually leave would make the place a lot better.