Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

So many false and weird assumptions and generalizations...

Rogue doesn't counter sneak or backstab.
There are multiple areas with sneak attacking enemies.
Most monster types are not typically sneakers, standard melee fighters are much more common.
Fighters have plenty of weaknesses, traps, DC casters, etc.
Traps can be a real b**** for anyone but a rogue/trapper type.
There is no anti-sneak attack PvE conspiracy
HIPS, as it is implemented, is not a good feat for the AI (as explained by Valefort).
Rogues have medium BAB, not low, and have a big hit bonus coming out of stealth.

Fighters are weak here compared to many other builds. The only saving grace is that they have access to UMD and that they can keep swinging until they're dead.
The other builds you mentioned - most have no fear of sneak attackers. Bards (can't believe you think bards would be scared of sneaks), druids, mages and clerics (DC) don't even need to see a sneak to kill it. Bards can buff listen to crazy highs, mages and clerics can pump spot easily.

I agree though, there should be more stealthy enemies. I disagree that there is some kind of big conspiracy theory as to why there currently isn't many. Devs probably just don't want the AI abusing HiPS. Nothing to do with threats to the current power hierarchy of builds - as soon as most rogues pop out of stealth they have around 4 seconds to live in pvp. (Unless they are slingshot halflings - the little bastards)

dedude wrote:So many false and weird assumptions and generalizations...

Rogue doesn't counter sneak or backstab.

phantom has spot and listen. Rangers do too, and are sneakers. They can be stealthed, and see the stealthed.

There are multiple areas with sneak attacking enemies.

like, 5, maybe?

Most monster types are not typically sneakers, standard melee fighters are much more common.

sword coast is full of humans and elves. No human or elven or drow sneaker enemies in the game though. None.

Fighters have plenty of weaknesses, traps, DC casters, etc.

Fighters run over traps and rarely even sneeze. Rogues have DC caster problems too (good!), in fact, rogues, with their low HP, and weak saves, fear caster far more than fighters.

Traps can be a real b**** for anyone but a rogue/trapper type.

Once again, when I played rogues, I feared traps. The low HP. Poison traps were horrible. I haven't worried about a trap since I started playing armored casters and fighter types. Not once. I don't slow down. I don't check. I just pop the chest and take the hit. I just run down the hall, if there is a trap... oh well. It was never that way for me with rogues. When playing rogue, traps were scary.

There is no anti-sneak attack PvE conspiracy

Didn't say there was. I said it just happened. People said sneaks are too powerful deadly unfun whatever, and away they went, along with balance. In every fantasy game ever made.

HIPS, as it is implemented, is not a good feat for the AI (as explained by Valefort).

It wouldn't be a big deal, if sneaks were abundant, and people invested in spot and listen, spells to reveal sneaks, and spells to defend from crits.

Oh, and HIPS cooldown should be moved to 15 seconds, not 5. For players and for enemies. Then it would be a balnced feat. Right now, it is bad, because 5 seconds is simply too short. HiPS is completely OP as it is right now.

Rogues have medium BAB, not low,

I am quite aware of that. I said low though, because, somehow, it feels like they have low BAB when toe to toe. Why? Because compared to clerics and favored souls and bards... ..they do! Don't believe me? they all have medium progression....

...but rogues cant buff themselves up, bless them selves, give bulls strength, and Divine favor, etc etc..

Furthermore, rogues are worried about their gear being stealthy, whilst everyone else wants their gear to make them more invulnerable to damage and stronger.

AC81 wrote: The other builds you mentioned - most have no fear of sneak attackers. Bards (can't believe you think bards would be scared of sneaks), druids, mages and clerics (DC) don't even need to see a sneak to kill it. Bards can buff listen to crazy highs, mages and clerics can pump spot easily.

Cool, then adding more sneaks shouldn't be a big deal at all.

Valefort wrote: Well, my PC is a fighter type but I played one wizard up to level 21 and one rogue up to 9. My main needs top gear to be good and is consumeables-hungry. My wizard was naked and I hit the recommend button on level up systematically, still steamrolled the content. My rogue got so boring as soon as I got HiPS that I stopped playing him.

Now guess what I think about this sentence :

Have you ever, ever, ever played a fantasy game, where the rogues and mages were OP, and the fighters were "Meh" to weak?

Me too, (I quit playing HiPS) because HiPS is OP at 5 seconds, it needs to be 15, like it says it is in the feat description. Maybe even 20 or 30 seconds or one minute. 30 seconds would be plenty to kill a HiPSing enemy too. If you don't, they fade away... and you fear the next sneak attack. That is the way it should be, not the corny attack, run away, fade rinse and repeat snooze fest it is right now.

I am pretty sure HiPS was imagined as a reatreat option, when added to the rules, not a sneak attack factory. The sneak attack factory is corny and boring.

I dislike HiPS immensely because it has extremely poor mechanics. It requires the HiPSer to dump all they can into hide/MS in order to be essentially invulnerable. For anyone to see them they have to do the same with spot/listen. If spot/listen isn't a class skill and you are not willing to put equipment into it don't bother. It is a min/max mini game and it is not fun. Don't even get me started on the people who talk while HiPSed and some how don't think it would give them insta 0 roll on move silent check.

AI can't handle using HiPS and yes.... making a dungeon with the requirement of "must have 60+ spot/listen or you are toast" is not fun to me. I would rather see what we have now that is mobs that start out hiddin and once they attack they stay visible.

NeOmega wrote:Me too, (I quit playing HiPS) because HiPS is OP at 5 seconds, it needs to be 15, like it says it is in the feat description. Maybe even 20 or 30 seconds or one minute. 30 seconds would be plenty to kill a HiPSing enemy too. If you don't, they fade away... and you fear the next sneak attack.

If you hadn't quit playing a HiPS character, you might have come to realize that trying to play one against the more difficult content of the server is no cakewalk. Even at a 15 second delay, it would be nearly impossible for any HiPS character to engage in sustained combat, against monsters on any map, without dying. 20 or 30 seconds? Forget it. This would shift the sneak paradigm in a direction where all sneak players would be having to start mixing in AC heavy classes just to stay alive. HiPS reliant characters simply cannot go toe to toe with content of their appropriate level for 15 seconds(at least not without using copious/absurd amounts of consumables). This is a fact. If you don't believe me, return to building your HiPS character, get them to level 15, then go to the Sharpteeth caves and attack some orcs. Try to not re-HiPS for 15 seconds during every fight. Be sure to have your running shoes/fugue pajamas packed.

That is the way it should be, not the corny attack, run away, fade rinse and repeat snooze fest it is right now.

Your idea would only change this to: Attack, run away, run away some more, get pummeled in the face, nope... keep running, spam healing potions, maybe finally HiPS(?... if you're still alive), spam healing kits, rinse, repeat the marathon.

But, we digress, thank goodness this isn't a thread about HiPS...

As for the OP, I also would like to see some more sneaky content. The content that does exist is catered to high level characters only, and some of it is just nasty, especially IF you play a sneak(have I mentioned I hate the invisible stalker cave? Yes, yes I have...)

During a DM event we had a rogue/somthing/somthing or whatever make stealth rolls into the 90s (she even said it was a low roll for her!). Granted the player was level 30 but that's some serious stealth gear advantage going on there.

This tells me that its not worth my time investing my skill points and focusing my gear on detection skills as I will never compete with the stealth the rogue has. Nor does this investment benefit me in the same way.

So if anything the maximum Hide & Move Silently skills allowed on the server by a PC discourages other PCs from taking high detection skills in the first place. you might put 5-10 points in the skill and leave it at that for PVE, but your never going to find the stealth PC.

In contrast it can mean that the stealth used by NPCs is better than it appears because many players wont bother to invest in the counters.

Snarfy wrote:

NeOmega wrote:Me too, (I quit playing HiPS) because HiPS is OP at 5 seconds, it needs to be 15, like it says it is in the feat description. Maybe even 20 or 30 seconds or one minute. 30 seconds would be plenty to kill a HiPSing enemy too. If you don't, they fade away... and you fear the next sneak attack.

If you hadn't quit playing a HiPS character, you might have come to realize that trying to play one against the more difficult content of the server is no cakewalk. Even at a 15 second delay, it would be nearly impossible for any HiPS character to engage in sustained combat, against monsters on any map, without dying. 20 or 30 seconds? Forget it. This would shift the sneak paradigm in a direction where all sneak players would be having to start mixing in AC heavy classes just to stay alive. HiPS reliant characters simply cannot go toe to toe with content of their appropriate level for 15 seconds(at least not without using copious/absurd amounts of consumables). This is a fact. If you don't believe me, return to building your HiPS character, get them to level 15, then go to the Sharpteeth caves and attack some orcs. Try to not re-HiPS for 15 seconds during every fight. Be sure to have your running shoes/fugue pajamas packed.

That is the way it should be, not the corny attack, run away, fade rinse and repeat snooze fest it is right now.

But, we digress, thank goodness this isn't a thread about HiPS...

As for the OP, I also would like to see some more sneaky content. The content that does exist is catered to high level characters only, and some of it is just nasty, especially IF you play a sneak(have I mentioned I hate the invisible stalker cave? Yes, yes I have...)

I eventually figured out, I didn't need to HIPS often, if I added high BAB, (or clerics) into the mix of my builds, and started using potions for mage armor and barkskin, ghostly visage wands and shield potions. That's when I started using Ghost face warrior or ranger or invisible blade for "HIPS" builds. because the ghost step is an emergency measure, really, and it gives high BAB.

Also, I realized for mobs, my maxxing out all gear in stealth was pointless. I could drop 10 points of Hide/MS, gear, and still have a successful HiPS 95% of the time.

Your idea would only change this to: Attack, run away, run away some more, get pummeled in the face, nope... keep running, spam healing potions, maybe finally HiPS(?... if you're still alive), spam healing kits, rinse, repeat the marathon.

thats how it always was anyway, with med BAB HiPS builds.
And Ive seen some people use HiPS archers. They dont have any problem at all, whatsoever. Talk about an "I win" button

RaiderOne wrote:During a DM event we had a rogue/somthing/somthing or whatever make stealth rolls into the 90s (she even said it was a low roll for her!). Granted the player was level 30 but that's some serious stealth gear advantage going on there.

This tells me that its not worth my time investing my skill points and focusing my gear on detection skills as I will never compete with the stealth the rogue has. Nor does this investment benefit me in the same way.

So if anything the maximum Hide & Move Silently skills allowed on the server by a PC discourages other PCs from taking high detection skills in the first place. you might put 5-10 points in the skill and leave it at that for PVE, but your never going to find the stealth PC.

Those rolls are not the norm though. And it's not too difficult to get high detection skills if you go with a proper build and invest in detection gear.

Yep, few player get more than mid 70s or low 80s in stealth so you only need 60ish spot to detect most sneaks... Flasmix has like 120 spot, so saying it's "impossible" to detect is just not true.

Yes there are a few players that have pcs with 90-100 hide/ ms... all you need is 70-80. spot and you will always spot them eventually. But then you need to invest in being spotter, jyst like they invest in being sneak

chad878262 wrote:Yep, few player get more than mid 70s or low 80s in stealth so you only need 60ish spot to detect most sneaks... Flasmix has like 120 spot, so saying it's "impossible" to detect is just not true.

Yes there are a few players that have pcs with 90-100 hide/ ms... all you need is 70-80. spot and you will always spot them eventually. But then you need to invest in being spotter, jyst like they invest in being sneak

Which is impossible for many builds that do not have spot/listen as class skills and don't min max wisdom/spotting or listening equipment. Those characters would just not be allowed in that dungeon. Think of it the other way. Would you want a dungeon where every single mob has 100 spot/listen? I wouldn't It would screw over the HiPS entirely. There already is a program that gives like 1/100 mobs decent spot/listen. We already know that many dungeons have mobs that attempt to sneak. This is a fun balance.

Laughingman wrote:

chad878262 wrote:Yep, few player get more than mid 70s or low 80s in stealth so you only need 60ish spot to detect most sneaks... Flasmix has like 120 spot, so saying it's "impossible" to detect is just not true.

Yes there are a few players that have pcs with 90-100 hide/ ms... all you need is 70-80. spot and you will always spot them eventually. But then you need to invest in being spotter, jyst like they invest in being sneak

Which is impossible for many builds that do not have spot/listen as class skills and don't min max wisdom/spotting or listening equipment. Those characters would just not be allowed in that dungeon. Think of it the other way. Would you want a dungeon where every single mob has 100 spot/listen? I wouldn't It would screw over the HiPS entirely. There already is a program that gives like 1/100 mobs decent spot/listen. We already know that many dungeons have mobs that attempt to sneak. This is a fun balance.

Well, impossible for many builds is a part of balance... if you want decent detection you give up something else. However, want really advocating for anything here, just saying simply That getting spot and/ or listen is no more difficult then stealth.

chad878262 wrote:

Laughingman wrote:

chad878262 wrote:Yep, few player get more than mid 70s or low 80s in stealth so you only need 60ish spot to detect most sneaks... Flasmix has like 120 spot, so saying it's "impossible" to detect is just not true.

Yes there are a few players that have pcs with 90-100 hide/ ms... all you need is 70-80. spot and you will always spot them eventually. But then you need to invest in being spotter, jyst like they invest in being sneak

Which is impossible for many builds that do not have spot/listen as class skills and don't min max wisdom/spotting or listening equipment. Those characters would just not be allowed in that dungeon. Think of it the other way. Would you want a dungeon where every single mob has 100 spot/listen? I wouldn't It would screw over the HiPS entirely. There already is a program that gives like 1/100 mobs decent spot/listen. We already know that many dungeons have mobs that attempt to sneak. This is a fun balance.

Well, impossible for many builds is a part of balance... if you want decent detection you give up something else. However, want really advocating for anything here, just saying simply That getting spot and/ or listen is no more difficult then stealth.

benefits/tradeoffs are totally different though. If a dungeon were to have mobs that hipsed in and out every five seconds getting death attacks constantly and being all but impossible to target with spells then I am sorry but no. I would not enjoy it at all. If you would that is fine but I really do hope our devs spend time elsewhere first.

chad878262 wrote:Well, impossible for many builds is a part of balance... if you want decent detection you give up something else. However, want really advocating for anything here, just saying simply That getting spot and/ or listen is no more difficult then stealth.

Decent doesn't really cut it. It's max or nothing against a stealth PC. Also stealth works against everything and has bonuses like HiPS, detection only works against stealth so it's not a fair trade to begin with.