aaron22 wrote:what looks bad to me on the class is the 8 bonus feats through 30. that seems a bit steep. and i would make the high progress of sa dice to two feats. first gives 5 SA over 30 and secong gives the remaining 4 SA dice over 30. would also like to see a special feat that if you have track it gives swift track.
I am not sure why you think the bonus feats are too steep. Ranger gets how many bonus feats and is a high bab?! Also Rogue gets its many bonus feats albeit specific rogue ones, but they are uniquely rogue and cannot be obtained elsewhere.
I would agree Scout after 20 has unfairly high advantage with epic bonus feats. But then again, what else does Scout really have going for it at those levels as opposed to multi-classing?
Why would you change SA progress to two feats? it is a medium bab class. It already needs to use one of its "free" feat slots for the faster SA progression. Isn't that enough? The other medium bab classes either have SA or spells...
Last edited by blacksoft on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
I think moving it away from multiclass awesome is the best choice. So perhapse dropping some bonus feats for more sneak dice or other abilities. I would like the class to have a choice to either progress animal companions or do something else, which then makes it a nicer option for rangers/druids.
HiPS should probably be the same thing as the ranger version has. outdoors only.
RaiderOne wrote:UMD is nice, but its another skill investment, if you also want tumble i know what i would choose.
The other problem is from a spellcaster perspective; 4 levels gets you, dash, AC, skills, uncanny dodge, fort boost, a bonus feat (which becomes the +4 caster level choice). if your a light/no armour caster and have good reflex you might take a 5th for evasion and drop 1 CL. Again, the sneak damage is unwanted in this case.
We were having the same problem when looking at the phantom. It becomes a nightmare to give the class what it wants without it becoming a 'why wouldn't you' multiclass option.
You make a good point, however, you are delaying spells by 4 levels with a non-caster progression with your suggestion. You are offering splash options, but are you saying that makes this preferable for casters than alternatives? Normally, if a caster wants evasion, it goes rogue 3, for Scout, it is 5 more levels and for what - ac and bonus feat slot - I would think taking 5 levels is a good sacrifice for caster, no?
RaiderOne wrote:
HiPS should probably be the same thing as the ranger version has. outdoors only.
Thematically, you are correct. I just don't think technically it should be. Think about it. Ranger can always go for SD and still retain 26 bab base. Scout, not so much. Plus Scout will be needing HIPS way more than the Ranger since its damage is from SA.
Other than ac, Scout's main advantage is having a working HIPS. Moving it to outdoors is a huge nerf and puts Scout back to being a splash class.
A Scout's weakness is SA immune as it does not have epic precision. Is that not enough?
blacksoft wrote:You make a good point, however, you are delaying spells by 4 levels with a non-caster progression with your suggestion. You are offering splash options, but are you saying that makes this preferable for casters than alternatives? Normally, if a caster wants evasion, it goes rogue 3, for Scout, it is 5 more levels and for what - ac and bonus feat slot - I would think taking 5 levels is a good sacrifice for caster, no?
Well you need 10 ranks per tumble AC, and i think you need to spend 4 levels for the +4 CL feats to kick in (something about how they are coded?). So the best choice is scout at level 1 and then wait till the mid/late teens to pick up the other levels. Which by that point you have not delayed your spellcasting ability by much. Mileage may vary by your spellcasting class type
I already pointed out why melee characters would take it in a previous post. Essentially if your a melee fighter or an arcane caster you would probably take levels in this, its such a good deal.
blacksoft wrote:Thematically, you are correct. I just don't think technically it should be. Think about it. Ranger can always go for SD and still retain 26 bab base. Scout, not so much. Plus Scout will be needing HIPS way more than the Ranger since its damage is from SA.
Other than ac, Scout's main advantage is having a working HIPS. Moving it to outdoors is a huge nerf and puts Scout back to being a splash class.A Scout's weakness is SA immune as it does not have epic precision. Is that not enough?
Everyone makes a big deal about epic precision, and i'm not saying its not good, but you do have to be level 21, spend an epic feat and meet some requirements to get it. So you have 20 levels of playing before its even a thing you can consider. Even then the scout has lower sneak dice so should look for other ways to support its attack strategy rather than trying to be a rogue - which is a class you can be if you want that
I find HiPS to be this big stupid thing where because it exists everyone feels that every sneaker should have it or needs it. It was a problem when the shadow dancer dropped in nwn1 and its been an issue ever since. It is meant to be a 'supernatural' ability, and the scout does not seem supernatural to me.
blacksoft wrote:You make a good point, however, you are delaying spells by 4 levels with a non-caster progression with your suggestion. You are offering splash options, but are you saying that makes this preferable for casters than alternatives? Normally, if a caster wants evasion, it goes rogue 3, for Scout, it is 5 more levels and for what - ac and bonus feat slot - I would think taking 5 levels is a good sacrifice for caster, no?
Well you need 10 ranks per tumble AC, and i think you need to spend 4 levels for the +4 CL feats to kick in (something about how they are coded?). So the best choice is scout at level 1 and then wait till the mid/late teens to pick up the other levels. Which by that point you have not delayed your spellcasting ability by much. Mileage may vary by your spellcasting class type
I already pointed out why melee characters would take it in a previous post. Essentially if your a melee fighter or an arcane caster you would probably take levels in this, its such a good deal.
blacksoft wrote:Thematically, you are correct. I just don't think technically it should be. Think about it. Ranger can always go for SD and still retain 26 bab base. Scout, not so much. Plus Scout will be needing HIPS way more than the Ranger since its damage is from SA.
Other than ac, Scout's main advantage is having a working HIPS. Moving it to outdoors is a huge nerf and puts Scout back to being a splash class.A Scout's weakness is SA immune as it does not have epic precision. Is that not enough?
Everyone makes a big deal about epic precision, and i'm not saying its not good, but you do have to be level 21, spend an epic feat and meet some requirements to get it. So you have 20 levels of playing before its even a thing you can consider. Even then the scout has lower sneak dice so should look for other ways to support its attack strategy rather than trying to be a rogue - which is a class you can be if you want that
I find HiPS to be this big stupid thing where because it exists everyone feels that every sneaker should have it or needs it. It was a problem when the shadow dancer dropped in nwn1 and its been an issue ever since. It is meant to be a 'supernatural' ability, and the scout does not seem supernatural to me.
Fair enough. I still would hate to see it lose its HIPS since I am not sure I would invest so heavily in Scout if this were to be true. (I would probably stop at 8 and never look back)
you could possibly give it EP at 25/26 and it would be a good class.
to me, making a class that is both a good splash class and a good platform class is where it is at. just not too good that it makes other classes redundant.
animal progression seems going the wrong direction. outdoor only hips is not a good idea either to me.
was epic skirmisher supposed to be SA dice? that would be too powerful i think.
it still feels a bit on the weak side. going 30. its a ranger without spells, BAB and a pet. and a rogue without UMD, epic dodge and EP.
Without animal progression its not a good class for druids or rangers, which would be suited to being scouts otherwise. I'm not saying it should have it, but if the class has some optional choices it would be nice to be one of those it could take.
The sneak attack ability the scout has its called skirmish in the book and does some other things but only works against living targets. http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/scout/index.html most importantly does not require the target to be flat footed!
It does need some more oomph to it rather than support abilities.
The sneak attack ability the scout has its called skirmish in the book and does some other things but only works against living targets. http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/scout/index.html most importantly does not require the target to be flat footed!
lol. I looked at your link. Unlike Kaedrin's 20th level Scout getting blind fight (weak), here it receives blindsense level 10, and blindsight level 20, not unlike my suggestion earlier.
"Blindsight (Ex): A 20th-level scout gains the blindsight ability out to 30 feet. Her senses become so acute that she can maneuver and fight flawlessly even in total darkness. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the scout must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern it."
And you were worried about Scout obtaining supernatural abilities!
As an aside, I see that the Scout is meant to have +20 feet speed by level 11. Maybe add another speed feature a that point in addition to dash gained at level 3. (long gait, frantic reactions, barbarian speed idk something else)
RaiderOne wrote:
Though thinking about it, the wilderness stalker PRC is basically the scout so why not just play that?
Similar, but not what I was looking for. Scout has all the bells and whistles that I would want. Add in Swashbuckler, and I am satisfied.
Honestly, since scout is not implemented (I like the flavor of it), I am running crazy two-handed Halfling build that should be nuts once I get combat insight. Took track feat to compensate. Probably better off this way as I get ab, damage, and ac. And I don't have to concern myself with the dc's of sneaking.
the 3.5 scout has a lot of mobility feats that dont fit in with bgstcc.
to make up for the mobility through rough terrain feat, i would propose it get +5% movement speed every 3 levels.
i can see why skirmish was not implemented. it would be rough to do mechanically, and doesnt make much sense. It is not a sneak attack, and the wiki does not call it sneak dice.
so id propose instead point blank shot, or a pole arm bonus for either spears, staffs, or halberds. perhaps when landing a critical with a pole arm or spear, the enemy is tripped, or pushed back. at a higher level, the enemy is slowed/ crippled.
i cant believe the dnd version does not have track and fast track as natural progression feats.
also at level 15 or higher i think it should get the ranger feat that allows it to run while in stealth outdoors, and perhaps even a free tree stride once per day, as an ability.
there is no way for a scout to set charges or sabotage, so i think somewhere along the way it should gain the disable device and set trap skill feats.
also, the danger sense feat elves and drow get, so a scout is always in search mode.
8 +int skill points should be more like 6 or even 4.
in general, scouts are not supposed to be fighters. they may be used to hit certain targets, but unlike assassins, their targets are rarely leaders, etc... ..it is more like disrupting weapons caches or communications, (sabotage and spotting, killing other scouts or messengers).
unlike rangers, scouts have no divine spells, or animal companion, or high BaB, as it should be. scouts are not rangers, they are the eyes of an team, as rangers tend more to work alone.
scouts are not rogues. rogues tend to thrive off of cities, while scouts are more outdoors based. rogues tend to be more chaotic, while a scout is more lawful/loyal to a team than to himself. so limit alignment to no chaotic, and no neutral evil.
the DnD version gives scouts a strange form of sneak attack, that i dont think applies or stacks with sneak dice, except in the first round. the skirmish ability wouldnt count for much, and be OP sneak attacks every round, since tumble checks are auto after 17 ranks.
id propose instead the scout ignores armor, (but not bonus/ enchantments), perhaps a progression, wher at 1st level, a scout gains +1 attack vs enemies in medium armor and +2 vs enemies in heavy armor. every 10th level, these bonuses increase by 2. (a pure level 30 scout would have +7 attack vs medium armor and +8 attack vs heavy armor opponents).
Or perhaps flurry of blows with all small wepons, staff and spear. I notice many enemy scouts use spears, and spears could use some love.
if the bonus vs med and heavy armors would require tagging all monsters with an armor type, instead give the scout an attack bonus of 16 - enemy dexterity. or have it progess from 11 to 16, every 4 levels.
also, disguise, sense motive and escape artist skills.
