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Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:09 pm
by Thorsson
Endelyon wrote:I'm not pointing this out to say "Hey here's evidence that we should add Half-Dwarves as a mechanical subrace," but I'd be remiss to let all these people in this thread keep saying this idea has no basis in FR and not to point out this supplemental 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms sourcebook written by Ed Greenwood himself that outlines and references the existence of Half-Dwarves several times and talks about their ecology directly:
https://www.amazon.com/Dwarves-Advanced ... 0880388803
Well apart from that being AD&D (2nd Edition), this is what it has to say on the subject:
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. Elminster says elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today. Mates who respect dwarven customs and traditions are honored for their courage (in entering a strange society), loyalty (to the customs of dwarves) and aid (in
preserving the Folk). Half-dwarves are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pureblood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods. If halfbloods mate with pureblood dwarves, the offspring will be a pureblood. If halfbloods mate with another halfblood or a nondwarf, the offspring will be a halfblood.
Which appears pretty much the same as the Wiki.
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:34 am
by grymhild
FR11 Dwarves Deep, p. 4 wrote:The Doom Of the Dwarves
The tragic `secret` of the dwarves is their low birthrate. Fear of clan extinction sometimes drives dwarves to raid human settlements for mates, or even to deal with slavers. The dwarves are usually in search of human women, because the low dwarven birthrate is thought to be due to low fertility among dwarven women.
The offspring of a human and a dwarf is always dwarven enough to pass for a true dwarf (although it may be a foot taller than other dwarves). Any offspring it may in turn have with a dwarven mate will be fully dwarven, reverting to usual dwarven height. The taking of human mates is "the secret salvation of the race" referred to by some dwarven elders.
FR11 Dwarves Deep, p. 6 wrote:Halfbloods
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. Elminster says elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today. Mates who respect dwarven customs and traditions are honored for their courage (in entering a strange society), loyalty (to the customs of dwarves) and aid (in preserving the Folk).
"Half-dwarves" are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pureblood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.
If halfbloods mate with pureblood dwarves, the offspring will be a pureblood. If halfbloods mate with another halfblood or a nondwarf, the offspring will be a halfblood.
The quote, "...elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today" refers to half elf-dwarf hybrids as being "unheard-of", and is not referring to half human-dwarf hybrids which are common enough to earned six paragraphs in two sections of the book.
~grym
p.s.
(Muls (i.e. "Mules"), they are Athasian (Dark Sun) half-dwarves and are sterile.)
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:42 am
by Thorsson
grymhild wrote:The quote, "...elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today" refers to half elf-dwarf hybrids as being "unheard-of", and is not referring to half human-dwarf hybrids which are common enough to earned six paragraphs in two sections of the book.
You are right, it does refer to "dwelves". There are only five paras though and one of those is about dwelves. Plus those paras melt down to, "all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look (save for their height) and act (and are treated in the rules) as pureblood dwarves".
Therefore they are not a separate sub-race. This is what needs to be resisted, because as soon as you allow that, there will be calls for special abilities, etc.
As to why a particularly tall Dwarf shouldn't claim some human heritage, you'll have to take that up with the RP Police. As long as there is no intent to gain an advantage I don't see what the problem is. On the 'special snowflake' scale it's pretty low.
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:49 am
by Blame The Rogue
this topic reminds me of the homebrew race elfling
tempermental. favored class: sorcerer
typically chaotic
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:58 am
by Calantyr
Thorsson wrote:grymhild wrote:The quote, "...elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today" refers to half elf-dwarf hybrids as being "unheard-of", and is not referring to half human-dwarf hybrids which are common enough to earned six paragraphs in two sections of the book.
You are right, it does refer to "dwelves". There are only five paras though and one of those is about dwelves. Plus those paras melt down to, "all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look (save for their height) and act (and are treated in the rules) as pureblood dwarves".
Therefore they are not a separate sub-race. This is what needs to be resisted, because as soon as you allow that, there will be calls for special abilities, etc.
As to why a particularly tall Dwarf shouldn't claim some human heritage, you'll have to take that up with the RP Police. As long as there is no intent to gain an advantage I don't see what the problem is. On the 'special snowflake' scale it's pretty low.
The entire idea was to open up more graphic options for dwarves, since outdated NWN2 graphics for certain races is one of the key reasons brought up time and again for why no one chooses them. If you simply say that there's no reason for a new sub-race because mechanically they are the same as dwarves that still leaves the problem that they will therefore use the old graphics, nothing changes, and no one picks them.
Sure the most sensible option would be to simply add better graphics, but who has the time to learn how to model/texture it?
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:57 pm
by NegInfinity
Calantyr wrote:Sure the most sensible option would be to simply add better graphics, but who has the time to learn how to model/texture it?
There's an option to fork out enough cash to professional modeler and have a dwarf done in suitable style. Won't be cheap.
Built in dwarves, in my opinion, are quite cool. Not sure about builtin female dwarves, though.
Alternatively, you could try making your own dwarf. This is something about half-dozen of forum mebers are capable of, excpet they normally have no time.
Learnign modeling will take several months of your time and intensive practice daily. Not impossible to do, and not a rocket science. Just need to burn enough time practicing. Neverwinter 2 is an old game, so you won't need o do hyperrealistic modeling there.
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:08 pm
by Thorsson
Calantyr wrote:The entire idea was to open up more graphic options for dwarves, since outdated NWN2 graphics for certain races is one of the key reasons brought up time and again for why no one chooses them.
What? What? What? Are you suggesting that no-one chooses Dwarves? That's not my experience, although I guess compared to the pointy-eared tree-huggers they are under-represented.
But in any case, why do you need a new sub-race to add new graphics???
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:16 pm
by NegInfinity
Thorsson wrote:Calantyr wrote:The entire idea was to open up more graphic options for dwarves, since outdated NWN2 graphics for certain races is one of the key reasons brought up time and again for why no one chooses them.
What? What? What? Are you suggesting that no-one chooses Dwarves? That's not my experience, although I guess compared to the pointy-eared tree-huggers they are under-represented.
But in any case, why do you need a new sub-race to add new graphics???
I'd like to add that some of the most awesome moments I experienced on the server involved interacting with dwarven players.
I would not say that "no one chooses them", because dwarves appear from time to time, and back when Kraak Helzak was strong you could have over dozen of them active at the same time.
As far as models go, they look decent.
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:07 am
by Ravial
Half-dwarves use standard dwarven template. It's not a separate subrace by game mechanics.
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:51 am
by Calantyr
NegInfinity wrote:Calantyr wrote:Sure the most sensible option would be to simply add better graphics, but who has the time to learn how to model/texture it?
There's an option to fork out enough cash to professional modeler and have a dwarf done in suitable style. Won't be cheap.
Built in dwarves, in my opinion, are quite cool. Not sure about builtin female dwarves, though.
Alternatively, you could try making your own dwarf. This is something about half-dozen of forum mebers are capable of, excpet they normally have no time.
Learnign modeling will take several months of your time and intensive practice daily. Not impossible to do, and not a rocket science. Just need to burn enough time practicing. Neverwinter 2 is an old game, so you won't need o do hyperrealistic modeling there.
I am the primary carer of two small children, while at the same time a university student. I survive off 4-5 hours sleep a night. I don't have time to learn how to model and texture as well.
Look, I know how this works. I've been running persistent worlds since the halcyon days of Ultima Online, and I helped run one of the most popular and long-lasting NWN1 servers of all time until I got married. When I suggest making half-dwarfs it's not because I'm particularly fetishistic about implementing them, it's because it's the simplest and least time-consuming method of introducing new dwarven graphics in a lore-friendly way.
If no one agrees, fine. I'm not going to keep banging on about it.
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:59 am
by Zanniej
I do not think "half-dwarves" will be implemented as a subrace. There isn't enough appropriate lore around them to warrant that.
However, perhaps someone in the media team is willing to create some new models for dwarves. I'll ask
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:27 am
by NegInfinity
Calantyr wrote:
I am the primary carer of two small children, while at the same time a university student.
I don't see any connection with your proposition.
Calantyr wrote:
it's because it's the simplest and least time-consuming method of introducing new dwarven graphics in a lore-friendly way.
It isn't. You still need the models, doesn't matter if they're a subrace or not.
The simplest way of introducing dwarven graphics is making more dwarven heads. This way you can add just ONE dwarven head, once it is ready.
To make a subrace you'll need several models - rigged and skinned. Unless you want to reskin humans as dwares, it is more expensive and more time consuming than just dropping in few more dwarf appearances.
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:28 am
by Blame The Rogue
application only
request: to play a half dwarf
stats and model, standard dwarf
there's a mod that allows removing the "endcaps" on the height slider. you could make them just a tad taller than the tallest dwarf
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:45 am
by Calantyr
NegInfinity wrote:Calantyr wrote:
I am the primary carer of two small children, while at the same time a university student.
I don't see any connection with your proposition.
There wasn't, until it was repeatedly suggested that those who want additional content should just magic up the time necessary to learn how to model and texture, even when they aren't suggesting new models and textures.
Calantyr wrote:
it's because it's the simplest and least time-consuming method of introducing new dwarven graphics in a lore-friendly way.
It isn't. You still need the models, doesn't matter if they're a subrace or not.
No you do not. That's the entire point of the suggestion in the first place.
The simplest way of introducing dwarven graphics is making more dwarven heads. This way you can add just ONE dwarven head, once it is ready.
To make a subrace you'll need several models - rigged and skinned. Unless you want to reskin humans as dwares, it is more expensive and more time consuming than just dropping in few more dwarf appearances.
You can just re-use existing graphics, so long as it fits the lore. Which it does.
Blame The Rogue wrote:application only
request: to play a half dwarf
stats and model, standard dwarf
there's a mod that allows removing the "endcaps" on the height slider. you could make them just a tad taller than the tallest dwarf
Which again misses the entire point.
Just forget it.
Re: Half-dwarves as a dwarven subrace
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:57 am
by NegInfinity
Calantyr wrote:
There wasn't, until it was repeatedly suggested that those who want additional content should just magic up the time necessary to learn how to model and texture, even when they aren't suggesting new models and textures.
I can model, though I prefer low-poly.
Free up a hour per day and practice for two months. If you can't free a hour, free 30 minutes. Continuous effort over long periods of time makes incredible amount of difference. It is not as time-consuming as you think.
Otherwise if you work, save money and hire an artist.
No you do not. That's the entire point of the suggestion in the first place.
You want to simply reskin humans as half-dwarves? I would be against it. This does not contribute much to the world. I saw plenty of such attempts (like sigil's idea that making a dwarf red makes an azer) in the past they... don't look very good.