Crusader Holy Sword

[Steve]

You need to pick a two handed weapon to get the shield bonus, I'm not sure if it still applies if you use monkey grip to get a shield in your offhand. Would be willing to test this, but I'd rather not base a build on it if it doesn't actually apply. There's nothing in the description that suggests you can't use a shield with monkey grip.

Exactly. I'd like to know specifically if this is a trade-off Feat for the Class Kit, or is a true bonus.

Also Steve, the level 29 version is supposed to have no cooldown, the level 14 with a cooldown version is pretty okay, gives it to you whenever you NEED it, but can't just spam it. On paper anyways, right now it's just one use.

This is why I proposed a progression, so that "spamming" would be okay, but not OP.

It is rather known that your build need Magic to be highly effective on BGTSCC. If you take a Class Kit that forgoes magic—sure, you can dip for UMD but still dispellable—you have to rely on being able to consistently and quickly kill things, and have AC or DR to mitigate the dmg (casters have concealment and DR and SR, which is why they survive where melee builds ALWAYS FAIL).

A casting Paladin has a host of very powerful spells. She can get +5 EB with GMW. Holy Sword provides 2d6 dmg, but only against Evil. It is a minor bump ot the Kit.

[Kaybrie]

I personally strongly prefer a powerful buff when I need it while leveling, over a mediocre buff that I have to work to keep up all of the time.

Especially with the ease in which a player can acquire +3 weapons nowadays, it feels like bringing the pre-20 paladin down to +3 and cutting the damage down to 1/3rd - 1/2 would be gutting the feature, rather then an improvement.

[Steve]

Do you think a +5 EB + 2d6 dmg vs Evil for 1 minute 24 seconds every 10 minutes is a powerful buff for Leveling?

By Level 14, one can have easily made the 10k gold coin to purchase a +4 EB large weapon from Mudd's Consignment. Possibly even with some extra dmg. Or, purchased a 70k weapon from the Barbarian Trader in the Wide of BGTSCC. These weapons provide a constant EB and DMG output...but the real improvement comes with extra Feast, either IPA or NH if dmg is your thing.

At Level 15, a casting Paladin can also have Holy Sword for similar CL/rounds. Plus, the other AMAZING and useful spell book. +5 Shield bonus. Massive STR for better dmg output. Buff your CHA for even better Divine Might. Look around at the other numbers, and you'll still be hard pressed to beat a CHA high Paladin fully buffed...which is a long duration and massive DMG output + very high AB.

But maybe my thing that pulls me to offer another option is that waiting until Level 30 for the golden egg, is not what I think mechanics should be promoting. Wanting a Cooldown-less feat for this Class Kit is essentially a grind-fest lure. That's no fun!

But, I can understand your position to think that lowering the stats is a gut of the Feat. So, another alternative is to lessen the Cooldown as the Cavalier progresses. Call it a learning how to concentrate on the holy summons of power into the blade, or whatever!

Level 14–15 -> 9 min
Level 16–17 -> 8 min
Level 18–19 -> 7 min
Level 20–21 -> 6 min
Level 22–23 -> 5 min
Level 24–25 -> 4 min
Level 26–27 -> 3 min
Level 29-29 -> 2 min
Level 30 -> zero

[PiaMango]

Can it at least be extended at level 29? If it has no cooldown constantly refreshing it every 3 minutes sounds tedious when its supposed to be permanent.

[Valefort]

Crusader defense only applies when you've got nothing in your off-hand and using a medium or heavy armor, it is also shield enhancement bonus so no stacking with a shield spell.

[Steve]

Crusader defense only applies when you've got nothing in your off-hand and using a medium or heavy armor, it is also shield enhancement bonus so no stacking with a shield spell.

So, that means it's a personal choice between CE + Northlander Hewing or IPA, with the former gaining +1 AC and +1 AB over the latter, but IPA still out-damaging the former (if we are talking a final STR of 26 w/ +3 item).

In short term bursts, and against certain Foes, the Cavalier will shine. But without the Paladin spell book, you'll always want another PC around to buff your gal to high heaven. THEN you'll see somethin somethin!!

[chad878262]

Regarding the Shield bonus, how could it not be construed as a 'true bonus'? You are getting the equivalent AC That you would get from a +4 Heavy Shield while ALSO being able to benefit from the damage of a Great Sword or Warmace with 1.5 STR bonus and double IPA damage. The purpose is not meant to allow you to use a shield and just get an additional AC, it is meant to give you the AC while allowing you to get the damage of using a two-handed weapon.

As to spells, yep Paladin spells are pretty powerful so it's a big loss. However, we already have Kits that lose turning progression and such, the purpose here was to give other options. In testing it was found to be in good balance. (ie. some thought it was Overpowered and others thought it could use a bit of a bump, but overall it wasn't egregious either way). Some players don't want to play a spell casting paladin and this gives those players an option. It should not be (and isn't!) as powerful as a fully buffed vanilla Paladin, but it's not that large a difference one way or the other.

The Crusader can solo if you equip them like a non-caster in every slot, but the weapon. While shield wands are useless to them other wands still have benefit to cross-class UMD, no different then any other build in that regard.

[Steve]

Paladin shield of warding spell is +5...and for ANY shield you find. So when one gets that SR 32 shield, you now can ubermax the AC and become devastatingly resistance to Foe Casters!

Divine magic made in Heaven!!

What makes the other 2 Paladin kits nice are their 19 levels, versus Cavalier at 29. This gives the Player a host of options in multiclassing, to great benefit.

This is why I'd personally prefer a "power-up" on more levels of progression...always something to look forward to with your toy!!

[chad878262]

As I said, the purpose is not to make the Crusader more powerful than what is already out there (see M3ntalists post showing a 'naked' paladin soloing the balor, just like he did with bard a few years ago). The purpose is that it is a Paladin that can do more damage than any other while still having decently stout defense. There is a 32 SR Cloak, or maybe he get's lucky and obtains a 32 SR weapon or Armor, who knows. Point being that you are comparing using a shield, which lowers damage to not using a shield. So a vanilla Paladin can use a heavy shield and make it +5 for a total of 7 AC...This Paladin gets 6 shield AC while still getting all of the benefits for using a two handed weapon. In addition, he get's WIS Bonus to damage which is in between the benefit of Weapon Specialization and Greater WS (+3) . Imagine the damage to evil with Holy Sword, EDM, Crusader Strike and Smite Evil.

I don't think we necessarily want to give all of this as well as bonus feats from Divine Champion, Fighter or benefits of Anointed Knight, not to mention ye ole monk/rogue combo's.

[Valefort]

In any event changes are unlikely before a few months. Try it, play it and maybe adjustments will be made ! In one way or the other if it wasn't clear

[Steve]

Holy Sword/axe (d12) + 5 HS EB + 10 (STR * 1.5) + 14 EDM w/ max 24 CHA + 3 Crusader Weapon + 37 (Pal lvl 30 + 7 CHA) = 75 avg hit BUT only max 7x per Rest.

Remove Smite and it's 38 avg. while EDMing.

Remove EDM and it's 24 avg. Adding NH or IPA helps.

Like I said, good limited burst damage. My arcane gish can do avg of 38 dmg, my Spirit Shaman an avg of 41, with likely near equal AB to the Cavalier.. Plus all the Spells that make the build invincible.

Anyway, I do respect the idea of making a new avenue Class for a challenge to the gamer. Challenges are fun!! But if I was going to take up a challenge, I'd go play Valefort's Mealir build!! Lol.

[Hendrak]

I find the kit quite balanced. It may be that a little buff is missing, like Heavy Armor Opt or Knockdown... But time will see.

Holy Sword is a fantastic advantage. It´s damage is unresistable and its multiplied by crits. You can make alchemical silver or cold iron weapons good aligned and DR breaking.

I dont like all the buffing on my cavalier, also if i get dispelled by mobs or traps i loose a lot of power. I cant rebuff since i dont have enough spell slots and there are no scrolls or wands for custom paladin spells.

This kit offers a different way, it also supports the fantasy setting of twohanded weapon wielding paladins. Divinate and Cavalier are supporting the use of shields. You can go full STR, EDM or Smiting builds or combine those.

Some more diversion could be given if it was made easier to go for multiclassing... but then the loss of spellcasting abilities are not that important anymore...

In the result its good balanced and offers diversion from the other kits.

[RedLancer]

It's objectively weaker than a vanilla paladin. A kit shouldn't provide a weaker option, but a different option.

Crusader gets up to 6 Shield AC. A casting paladin covers 4 of that with Silverbeard and Righteous Glory + Divine Shield. Assuming UMD, the casting paladin also has the option of a Shield wand for 4 more AC.

Crusader gets 4 AB out of the weapon focus feats. Assuming UMD, the casting paladin only recovers 2 of that AB through Righteous Glory.

So Crusader, as compared to a casting paladin using a two-handed weapon, nets -2 AC and +2 AB.

Damage:

If we assume a 22 (26) / 22 (26) stat split, the Crusader will deal weapon +12 (STR) + 5 (Enhancement) + 16 (EDM) + 7 (avg. of 2d6 Holy Sword) + 3 (Crusader Strike), or weapon + 43 damage.

A casting paladin with the same stat split of 22 (30) / 22 (30) will deal weapon + 15 (STR) + 5 (Enhancement) + 20 (EDM), or weapon + 40 damage.

The difference in damage is exactly Crusader Strike. If the casting paladin uses Holy Sword, it moves ahead.

Essentially, the Crusader sacrifices all of its spell casting to do 3 more damage, on average, than a casting paladin who isn't using Holy Sword.

I think the kit could use a damage buff through the weapon specialization feats to solidify its role. Even then, it wouldn't move ahead of a casting paladin on the power scale; it just wouldn't lag quite so far behind.

[Kaybrie]

But, I can understand your position to think that lowering the stats is a gut of the Feat. So, another alternative is to lessen the Cooldown as the Cavalier progresses. Call it a learning how to concentrate on the holy summons of power into the blade, or whatever!

Level 14–15 -> 9 min
Level 16–17 -> 8 min
Level 18–19 -> 7 min
Level 20–21 -> 6 min
Level 22–23 -> 5 min
Level 24–25 -> 4 min
Level 26–27 -> 3 min
Level 29-29 -> 2 min
Level 30 -> zero

I like this suggestion. Though one could argue that at a 2 minute duration it basically has no cooldown then.

[PiaMango]

I agree the WD feats aren't so great since you can buy the cheap tokens that cast shield 1/day. The only advantage is WD isnt dispellable and doesnt need refreshing. Youre giving up access to tumble by going 30 crusader so its 6 WD ac vs 2 Tumble AC + 4 shield spell.

WD should finish progressing at 26 to give the option of a tumble/evasion dip that melee really need. That way it gives an advantage of being better than the easily accessible shield spell token and you are still sacrificing 1bab, 1 crusader strike dmg, 1 epic bonus feat and the permanent holy sword for the dip.