Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

AC81 wrote:Sorcerers ARE tier 1, they do not under any circumstances need a mechanical boost. However I can't see a problem with adding diplomacy and intimidate to their class skills.

I have to agree with this statement.

Giving them UMD is too strong.

Giving them more skill points.... meh... Like I said before, WoTC for "reasonable expectation" did a crap job here.

Now I want to try my hand at Sorcerer one more time and see where I can go.

they dont need UMD as a class skill when they can pretty much put one cross class rank into it and use non arcane wands already

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Lyna wrote: As to the weapon proficiency i feel like i don't really have a nice way to address this addition by Wotc. So i am just going to ignore it for now.

It is not a NWN2-specific addition. It is part of the source books.

And no, I do not think they should be getting all the social skills either. This is for rogues.

Social skills are used as prereqs for PRCs. Diplomancy, for example, would make it very easy to open up thamaturge early which is normally reserved for clerics.
Same goes for UMD. They already can use half of the scrolls by default, and with charisma based class they'll be able to scroll cast anything and use any item.

Keep in mind that both clerics and wizards are int+2 classes.

The way I see it, the best idea is to leave the class as is, without touching any aspect of it. That's because "improving" it will make it superior to wizard, then we'll need to "buff up" wizards, and then we'll end up making spellcasters even stronger.

NegInfinity wrote:

Lyna wrote: As to the weapon proficiency i feel like i don't really have a nice way to address this addition by Wotc. So i am just going to ignore it for now.

It is not a NWN2-specific addition. It is part of the source books.

Wotc is Wizards of the Coast. The writers of the 3.5 source book.

And no, I do not think they should be getting all the social skills either. This is for rogues.

No it's not. Many classes get social skills. The Rouge only skill is disable device and that is due to a rouge level requirement to do traps above DC 20.

Social skills are used as prereqs for PRCs. Diplomancy, for example, would make it very easy to open up thamaturge early which is normally reserved for clerics.
Same goes for UMD. They already can use half of the scrolls by default, and with charisma based class they'll be able to scroll cast anything and use any item.

Thamaturge is not reserved for clerics.. There are likely more mage Thamaturges then cleric Thamaturges on the server. Clerics do not get Greater Planar Binding. Yes it would allow you to meet prereqs for that one class. You would still require 6 levels over the wizards 5 levels and at current you can simply get diplomacy from Arcane Scholar. I agree on UMD however it is not required for Sorcerers.

Keep in mind that both clerics and wizards are int+2 classes.

Clerics gain bonus features, domains and so on. A wizards main stat is int, they could have 0 + int and would still end with higher skill points.

The way I see it, the best idea is to leave the class as is, without touching any aspect of it. That's because "improving" it will make it superior to wizard, then we'll need to "buff up" wizards, and then we'll end up making spellcasters even stronger.

No giving the class social skills or higher skill points would not make it superior to wizard. A wizard will continue to have more skill points and skill options. The idea of balance is to remove as much of the power gap as possible without going over.

Allow me to put this another way.

Barbarian - 10 skills
Bard - 30 skills
Cleric - 13 skills
Commoner - 6 skills
Druid - 12 skills
Favored Soul - 12 skills
Fighter - 8 skills
Man At Arms - 9 skills
Monk - 14 skills
paladin - 11 skills
Phantom - 11 skills
Ranger - 13 skills
Rouge - 27 skills
Sorcerer - 7 skills
Spirit Shaman - 13 skills
Swashbuckler - 10 skills
Warlock - 16 skills
Wizard - 15 skills

So with the exception of Commoner. a Sorcerer, a class that requires no formal training has the least skill options. And when other skills like jump, climb, use rope and ride make it in game, the Commoner and fighter class's will have many more skill options. I personally think that alone warrants the addition of diplomacy and intimidate.

I have a Sorcerer/Fighter/Arcane Scholar/Eldritch Knight.

Bluff - Sorcerer, Intimidate and Taunt - Fighter, Appraise and Diplomacy - Arcane Scholar, Sense Motive - Eldritch Knight.

I have taken the Able Learner feat, and now all those social skills are 'class' skills for my character. Of course I cannot max out all those skills as a sorcerer, but I can pick and choose what my character fancies the most. What suits him the best.

But yeah, I have to admit that the skill situation is a little sucky for the single class sorcerer. Not to mention that access to skills is literally going to force you to multiclass and cost you at least three feats: Able Learner, Practised Spellcaster, and one of the epic bonus feats from being a single class Sorcerer.

I personally have nothing against sorcerers getting default access to Intimidate, Diplomacy, and maybe event Taunt in addition to the Bluff skill. After all, not all sorcerers are scheming liars, and Intimidate as a class skill fits the archetype of a sorcerer that goes around burning villages, while Diplomacy would suit the more Gandalf-esque sorcerers, and Taunt would be more than fine for the generic trouble maker in a seedy tavern.

Yet there are a lot of sorcerers that have spent cross class skill points into those social skills, hence this change should grant sorcerers another 100% RCR period.

Lyna wrote:No it's not. Many classes get social skills. The Rouge only skill is disable device and that is due to a rouge level requirement to do traps above DC 20.

Divine Seeker also has the Trapfinding ability, but due to the high skill requirements of the PRC it is not really an option most builds can even consider. For example, if you wish to make a Cleric/Divine Seeker/Darkfire Disciple, you cannot. While you can get the Divine Seeker levels in accordance of the three by twenty rule, it will also push the Darkfire Disciple PRC levels past level 20 and thus this character would violate the server rules. Alternatively, a build such as Sorcerer/Divine Seeker/Harper Mage/Arcane Trickster would be my literal cup of tea - but it is just not possible on this server due to server rules.

But yeah, in theory, you can get the Trapfinding ability from two different classes, Rogue and Divine Seeker.

Lyna wrote: Sorcerer - 7 skills

Frenzied Berserker: 4 class skills.

I would be in favor of opening up intimidate as a Sorc skill. Diplomacy less so, as your archetypal Sorcerer is wild and unpolished. Their Charisma comes from a roguelike charm, not a diplomatic ability. UMD is just nonsense for a Sorc to me. UMD is a studied skill set, the ability to trick the magic item. The whole idea of a Sorc is (normally) that they do NOT study. Everything in life comes easy to them. Anything that requires study should be beyond them.

Now, there are exceptions to every archetype, obviously. And that's where the half levels come in. If you Sorc wants to study UMD, then they have to spend an extra amount of time on it, making other skills suffer.

Personally, I like the RP aspect of a wizard, or I'd go Sorc for sure. They are a MUCH more powerful class IMO.

NegInfinity wrote:

Lyna wrote: Sorcerer - 7 skills

Frenzied Berserker: 4 class skills.

yea and its also a PrC not a base class

Sapper Woody wrote:I would be in favor of opening up intimidate as a Sorc skill. Diplomacy less so, as your archetypal Sorcerer is wild and unpolished. Their Charisma comes from a roguelike charm, not a diplomatic ability. UMD is just nonsense for a Sorc to me. UMD is a studied skill set, the ability to trick the magic item. The whole idea of a Sorc is (normally) that they do NOT study. Everything in life comes easy to them. Anything that requires study should be beyond them.

Now, there are exceptions to every archetype, obviously. And that's where the half levels come in. If you Sorc wants to study UMD, then they have to spend an extra amount of time on it, making other skills suffer.

Personally, I like the RP aspect of a wizard, or I'd go Sorc for sure. They are a MUCH more powerful class IMO.

Just their magic comes easy to them. All points put into skills represent study/practice into those skills while feats/ability scores that buff skills represent inherent talent.

I mean, if anything that required study was beyond them, their multiclassing options would be sorely limited and they would have no class skills. Which isn't the case, obviously.