Expose Weakness not firing after 1/17 update

[Valefort]

I saw it but I'm still hoping for someone else to summarize the 12 pages thread >_>

I'll still do short version : vanilla EW was so extremely powerful that all melee builds tried to include it, all top melee builds had it. The state it is in now allows more build diversity, it's still the best possible choice with a -6 AC debuff but it's now worth considering other options without losing a ton of power.

Who needs what ?

Rangers - AC debuff: No. Bleed: Yes (big boost against non-FEs with DR)
Monks - AC debuff: Somewhat. Bleed: Yes (esp. Dex monks)
Rogues - AC debuff: No. Bleed: Yes (big boost against crit immunes with DR)
Phantoms - same as rogues
Swashbucklers (16+) - AC debuff: No. Bleed: Somewhat
Barbarians (18+) - AC debuff: No. Bleed: No.
Water domain clerics - AC debuff: No. Bleed: No.

For clarity I'll point out that attacking from HiPS denies all dodge AC on the target, negative dodge AC included (such as EW debuff).

[Maverick 40]

I am not blaming you Vale. I am just stumped on the reasoning behind the nerf. The Team decided to take the longest way around fixing the issue of high AB / high damage builds exploiting the feat by making a change to Evasion but that did nothing but cause them a -1 AC by switching from Mithral FP to Mithral Chainmail (not to mention a lot of work for you guys implementing the code). The easy fix, or requiring heavy DEX requirement to maintain DEX builds use the feat solely as intended was not adopted. Now, the feat is being further nerfed for a reason that doesn't make sense for DEX builds like mine.

So, it drops the AC of the target but when true DEX builds damage output is only averaging 12 dmg, 24 on Criticals and that is before the EPICs creature DR.......you understand my confusion over the decision? It just seems like you are hurting exactly the builds that the feat was attempting to aid. Even your assessment over the AC debuff not helping HiPsing builds (Dex builds) striking from a hiding position but rather it only helps true melee builds striking from a fixed position shows that you are still working on removing the true melee builds from the Feats benefit but you are in fact still hurting DEX builds, now even more consistently in cases where the spot script is high.

No one likes being a tag along in an EPIC party and one of the things that a true DEX build can contribute to a party is the ability to debuff Boss AC for the rest of the party. This just seems again, like you are removing the viability of weaker builds from sustaining in EPICs and forcing people to look at more power built melee, or caster opportunities. Basically, diminishing server diversity.

[Calodan]

I am not blaming you Vale. I am just stumped on the reasoning behind the nerf. The Team decided to take the longest way around fixing the issue of high AB / high damage builds exploiting the feat by making a change to Evasion but that did nothing but cause them a -1 AC by switching from Mithral FP to Mithral Chainmail (not to mention a lot of work for you guys implementing the code). The easy fix, or requiring heavy DEX requirement to maintain DEX builds use the feat solely as intended was not adopted. Now, the feat is being further nerfed for a reason that doesn't make sense for DEX builds like mine.

So, it drops the AC of the target but when true DEX builds damage output is only averaging 12 dmg, 24 on Criticals and that is before the EPICs creature DR.......you understand my confusion over the decision? It just seems like you are hurting exactly the builds that the feat was attempting to aid. Even your assessment over the AC debuff not helping HiPsing builds (Dex builds) striking from a hiding position but rather it only helps true melee builds striking from a fixed position shows that you are still working on removing the true melee builds from the Feats benefit but you are in fact still hurting DEX builds, now even more consistently in cases where the spot script is high.

No one likes being a tag along in an EPIC party and one of the things that a true DEX build can contribute to a party is the ability to debuff Boss AC for the rest of the party. This just seems again, like you are removing the viability of weaker builds from sustaining in EPICs and forcing people to look at more power built melee, or caster opportunities. Basically, diminishing server diversity.

You are missing it I think. Bleed damage has not been nerfed at all. Only the amount of stacking ac debuff. Which was the main culprit of making a DPS WM a thing with Expose Weakness. The stacking AC debuff being lessened also means DMs do not need to make monsters so damn powerful.

I say again the BLEED damage was not nerfed. The AC DEBUFF was.

Sorry I started this Vale.....

[Maverick 40]

I am not blaming you Vale. I am just stumped on the reasoning behind the nerf. The Team decided to take the longest way around fixing the issue of high AB / high damage builds exploiting the feat by making a change to Evasion but that did nothing but cause them a -1 AC by switching from Mithral FP to Mithral Chainmail (not to mention a lot of work for you guys implementing the code). The easy fix, or requiring heavy DEX requirement to maintain DEX builds use the feat solely as intended was not adopted. Now, the feat is being further nerfed for a reason that doesn't make sense for DEX builds like mine.

So, it drops the AC of the target but when true DEX builds damage output is only averaging 12 dmg, 24 on Criticals and that is before the EPICs creature DR.......you understand my confusion over the decision? It just seems like you are hurting exactly the builds that the feat was attempting to aid. Even your assessment over the AC debuff not helping HiPsing builds (Dex builds) striking from a hiding position but rather it only helps true melee builds striking from a fixed position shows that you are still working on removing the true melee builds from the Feats benefit but you are in fact still hurting DEX builds, now even more consistently in cases where the spot script is high.

No one likes being a tag along in an EPIC party and one of the things that a true DEX build can contribute to a party is the ability to debuff Boss AC for the rest of the party. This just seems again, like you are removing the viability of weaker builds from sustaining in EPICs and forcing people to look at more power built melee, or caster opportunities. Basically, diminishing server diversity.

You are missing it I think. Bleed damage has not been nerfed at all. Only the amount of stacking ac debuff. Which was the main culprit of making a DPS WM a thing with Expose Weakness. The stacking AC debuff being lessened also means DMs do not need to make monsters so damn powerful.

I say again the BLEED damage was not nerfed. The AC DEBUFF was.

Sorry I started this Vale.....

No, I do understand that bleed damage was not nerfed, although the strange double stacking effect of increasing the slow down timer is a bit strange. Yes, I know that the AC debuff was, I also know it was because melee builds with high damage output were exploiting this Feat in general and that is in fact what has caused all the recent changes. People playing Dex builds like myself could use that extra AC staking to help in epics, to increase critical chance opportunities. That included with the fact that when you do party, it helps to make your build feel worthwhile and appreciated by contributing this AC debuff. I have two high damage builds, one a pure melee with high AB and neither take Expose Weakness inspite both using light armor, because it is meant for DEX builds specifically being instituted by Obisidian for this purpose.

Also, don't apologize to Vale, he is a big boy and he can take it. He knows that I hold absolutely no ill will towards him. He and I have shared a cordial relationship ever since we have known each other and this changes nothing. So please, do not condescend my intrigues, nor attempt to intimate that my antagonism is directed at Valefort, or his efforts. When he first instituted the EW change, I was one of his biggest supporters. This new iteration has simply thrown me a bit for the purpose of it's institution, a Team decision and not resting solely upon any one specific shoulders I am sure.

Finally, DMs have to build UBER monsters because of Powerbuilds. There is no such thing as a Dex based powerbuild. If high DMG / high AB builds were not able to take Expose Weakness, there would be no concerns of DMs having to cope with them. There has never been a DM whom has said, "Damn, it's a Ranger/Rogue/Forest Stalker in the party, there goes all my plans!"

[Endelyon]

To be clear, it wasn't done because people with "high damage builds were exploiting the feat"--it was done because a total of a -15 AC debuff from a single feat is ludicrous and nothing else in the game comes even close in comparison.

-6 AC and the bleed damage still makes EW one of the best feats in the game.

[Maverick 40]

To be clear, it wasn't done because people with "high damage builds were exploiting the feat"--it was done because a total of a -15 AC debuff from a single feat is ludicrous and nothing else in the game comes even close in comparison.

-6 AC and the bleed damage still makes EW one of the best feats in the game.

So, -12 AC debuff (I don't believe 15 is correct) for a Dex build with moderate AC and very low damage output (which this Feat was intended for), it becomes very important to increase critical opportunities. Nothing is worse than seeing a series of 0-6 damage per hit roll up on an Epic Monster, let alone a boss and often it is only your criticals and the bleeding damage that can get through. If only Dex builds were using the Feat, than I doubt it would be as big an issue.

I think a Feat moving a critical multiplier from x3 to x4 on a Weapon Master build that already has a base damage around 50-60 and Epic Divine Might, which offers around 24 Divine Damage which bypasses all DR and critically multiplies, are examples of feats that are quite comparable when used as intended. Only difference between EW and those feats, is EW requirements are less strenuous and easier to take on a multitude of builds (specifically outside of dexers). I have heard there are plenty of caster feats which are comparable, but as I have never played a pure caster, I really can not speak to for certain.

[chad878262]

So, -12 AC debuff (I don't believe 15 is correct) for a Dex build with moderate AC and very low damage output (which this Feat was intended for), it becomes very important to increase critical opportunities.

Nope, stock is -15 since it's -3/round for 5 rounds. However, with the old version it was difficult to always get it to fire consistently. With the new version it fires consistently every round so you are assured the stacking AC, thus we felt it needed to be lowered.

In addition, saying it was made for low damage output characters is inaccurate, it's for many types of characters/builds, since it's available to anyone who gets evasion. For sneak attack builds the stacking AC penalty has NO EFFECT since flat footed means Dodge AC is lost (positive OR negative). Thus, many of the builds Expose Weakness is meant for are not impacted much at all since the AC debuff doesn't benefit them.

End of the day the stacking debuff would rarely go up to -15 with the old version unless you had multiple PC's landing it, but with the new version you were guaranteed to get there with the mode. By making the max -6 AC the end result is to be about the same power level as the old (broken) version.

I suppose we could have just built it to work RAW based on the description... Of course it would have been a far more severe nerf to make EW a full round action, and I imagine there would be far more upset folks were that the case. So we decided to fix the auto-hit and, as a result of that fix reduce the stacking AC malus to try and keep it at roughly the same power as it was, minus the OP/broken auto-hit.

[mrm3ntalist]

However, with the old version it was difficult to always get it to fire consistently. With the new version it fires consistently every round so you are assured the stacking AC, thus we felt it needed to be lowered.

That is the main reason why the stacking AC debuff got reduced. Anyone who played a char with the old version of EW can easily say how many EW misses there were in a round ( either because the attack did not hit, either becasue of bad timing causing to fire EW at low AB attacks ).

No character should ever "need" a 15AC debuff to hit. EW in its current implementation, even though it is still "green" is much more player friendly and much more efficient. The only thing that gave the old EW an advantage was the autohit, which i think everyone agrees should have been fixed much sooner.

[Maverick 40]

In addition, saying it was made for low damage output characters is inaccurate, it's for many types of characters/builds, since it's available to anyone who gets evasion. For sneak attack builds the stacking AC penalty has NO EFFECT since flat footed means Dodge AC is lost (positive OR negative). Thus, many of the builds Expose Weakness is meant for are not impacted much at all since the AC debuff doesn't benefit them.

Years ago I had seen a note on the NWN2 wiki page which stated that the expose weakness epic feat was home brewed by Obsidian (it is not found in PnP) to make dexterity builds viable in the Epic Levels. That note has since been removed and a simple google search is not finding any similar statements. While that seems logical I will not continue that arguement without a basis for support.

That being said, I have already stated how the nerf impacts Dex builds, specifically in their contribution to party in Epic levels, which I guess if everyone and their brother is dipping their builds in classes to take evasion, then that doesn't really follow on a macro/DM level. Still, you have to reason that their are spotter script areas that make it very hard for Dex builds as well forcing them into Melee and in which the AC subtraction is critical with average to poor AB.

Some other notes regarding the feat as it is now enacted.

1.) The new cooling timer is causing greater lag then intended. When fighting the same enemy, it will fire in succession as intended but when that enemy is defeated, you move to a second target but your timer is not yet cooled down, the feat will not fire until the next highest AB attack. That means if you are on your attack after your highest AB, I have seen where you will have to wait through that round and the next for the feat to fire.

2.) The activation of the feat still causes you to break stealth mode which wouldn't be that bad but.....

3.) The feat will still randomly deactivate, making you reactivate the feat.

4.) I did see that the feat will remain active even if switching weapons which is really impressive work and for that I say cheers

These are just some observations. The fact that poor Vale is being put to re script and code an entirely new feat is really impressive and I do not wish to diminish his efforts here. I would hope my comments would work toward solutions and not simply be viewed as problematic.

[chad878262]

Great feedback Maverick, just one point of clarification:

That being said, I have already stated how the nerf impacts Dex builds, specifically in their contribution to party in Epic levels, which I guess if everyone and their brother is dipping their builds in classes to take evasion, then that doesn't really follow on a macro/DM level. Still, you have to reason that their are spotter script areas that make it very hard for Dex builds as well forcing them into Melee and in which the AC subtraction is critical with average to poor AB.

DEX builds can have AB as high as STR builds so I am assuming you mean stealth/medium BAB builds that generally get ~34-36 AB. For these builds EW still get's them to effectively 40-42 AB which is generally fine for non-sneak builds. In other words, I think it should still be fine for these builds.

Edit: one additional note that spotter script is exceedingly rare so it's generally not going to cause a situation where your Sneak build is suddenly mobbed and unable to utilize HiPS.

[Valefort]

Regarding 1. the EW effect will be applied as soon as possible, the new feat is better than the old one in that regard. It's renewed 6 seconds after the last successfull EW and will be triggered on the next attack that connects so ... can't really be better than that !

For 3. when does it deactivate ?

[Theodore01]

It seems to deactivate whenever switching something, like a cloak or weapon. But not evertime.
(On my monk, i only switch from unarmed to a staff and swap cloaks.)

[Hendrak]

On my monk it sometimes deactivate if i use knockdown or if i get knockdowned.

Same with my paladin. But additionally its deactivating sometimes if i use shieldbash and shieldcharge.

My Monk is lvl 30 and has 38 AB. He has just 16 Dex. I love the new feat. I am hitting everything without problem. Dont have to bother when to activate it. My bleeding dmg is higher. Its doing all things better for me.

Same i can say for other chars of mine. I can concentrate on other things thans spamming expose weakness on CD. I realy like the new feat. Although i am not having a high DEX build.But i cant see the problem to be honest.

[Winterborne]

Why can it even be deactivated? I haven't seen any situation where I wouldn't want to have it on. Should just always be on IMO.

I am also getting the random deactivations.

[Maverick 40]

Great feedback Maverick, just one point of clarification:

That being said, I have already stated how the nerf impacts Dex builds, specifically in their contribution to party in Epic levels, which I guess if everyone and their brother is dipping their builds in classes to take evasion, then that doesn't really follow on a macro/DM level. Still, you have to reason that their are spotter script areas that make it very hard for Dex builds as well forcing them into Melee and in which the AC subtraction is critical with average to poor AB.

DEX builds can have AB as high as STR builds so I am assuming you mean stealth/medium BAB builds that generally get ~34-36 AB. For these builds EW still get's them to effectively 40-42 AB which is generally fine for non-sneak builds. In other words, I think it should still be fine for these builds.

Edit: one additional note that spotter script is exceedingly rare so it's generally not going to cause a situation where your Sneak build is suddenly mobbed and unable to utilize HiPS.

Medium BAB yes. To give specific example, I have an elven gish which when buffed has 44 AB but which often gets dispelled back down to 36 AB. Greater TWF gives him 8 attacks a round an he averages about 12 dmg per hit. How much HP does a base frost giant have, 500-1000? How much DR does it have? Same thing with Fire Giants, even Gnolls to some extent. It gets tedious and down right off putting attempting to get one down, let alone a mob. One benefit to such an endeavor, is that EW when applied to it's full extent will knock down the AC enough to begin criticalling with increasing opportunity. If you play a dex character without sneak dice, you would understand.

Now you make it also sound as if the EW is automatically applied on every attack. It is my understanding that you still need to beat the creatures AC to have it apply. Some bosses have quite high AC and there is still the chance with 36 AB, that you can miss your attack on simple mobs. Then your hard cap moves closer to -3 for medium and low AB builds. Is EW now auto hit?

Can you define exceedingly rare spotter script? I have found a good number of bosses can spot up to 60+ Hide and Move Silent characters and some pertinent areas such as Durlags and maybe 2-3 others still have the spotter's script in place.