Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Are you saying a lich, an incredibly powerful spellcaster, is incapable of disguising themselves using the Disguise Self spell and Non-Detection to prevent goodies from using Detect Undead/True Seeing to discern their presence?

Appearance is a non issue

CormyrElite wrote: Wrong.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot.
I hear nowadays they turned the monster manual into a big playable race book.

I can just imagine the modern band of adventurers:
Carrion Crawler thief
Zombie fighter
Dragon Turtle cleric
Owlbear mage

On that note I see no reason why I cannot make my Dracolich. Who do I see about developing the PRC?

Tsidkenu wrote:Are you saying a lich, an incredibly powerful spellcaster, is incapable of disguising themselves using the Disguise Self spell and Non-Detection to prevent goodies from using Detect Undead/True Seeing to discern their presence?

Appearance is a non issue

Disguise Self is an illusion and Non-Detection doesn't affect True Seeing. In a PnP world where people with 6th level spells are incredibly rare and no-one can afford to walk around with True Seeing up all the time that would work fine. In NWN2 it wouldn't cut it.
Unless they had a custom spell or used something more exotic (Maurice the Mimic Manservant makes an excellent skin suit and is immune to True Seeing...) they would be spotted immediately.

NeonAvenger wrote:

Tsidkenu wrote:Are you saying a lich, an incredibly powerful spellcaster, is incapable of disguising themselves using the Disguise Self spell and Non-Detection to prevent goodies from using Detect Undead/True Seeing to discern their presence?

Appearance is a non issue

Disguise Self is an illusion and Non-Detection doesn't affect True Seeing. In a PnP world where people with 6th level spells are incredibly rare and no-one can afford to walk around with True Seeing up all the time that would work fine. In NWN2 it wouldn't cut it.
Unless they had a custom spell or used something more exotic (Maurice the Mimic Manservant makes an excellent skin suit and is immune to True Seeing...) they would be spotted immediately.

You're underestimating the true power of a real lich. I'm sure by those millennia of existence a lich has more access to disguising spells than just a mere Disguise Self illusion spell. Raerlin, a lich, actually breeched Elminster of Shadowdale's tower (an impossible feat during that time), so I wouldn't think a lich would have trouble walking around. That's not the real issue. The real issue is the reason why they would walk around. A lot of adventurers walk to socialize or form parties. Liches don't do these things. They are solitary creatures, and when they do walk around they need a reason (to seek an individual, test a spell, attack a town, or trying to conquer a kingdom). It would be frowned upon to see a lich in disguise chatting with adventurers at the Friendly Arm Inn. I think this would be the real issue of being a lich on BGTSCC.

Flasmix wrote:Well, it IS possible, but your PC then becomes an NPC and can potentially be placed as a boss in a dungeon.

I had a Lich once...

So it's totes possible. But this is true, it turns your character into an NPC.

And... where does one draw the line if this became a possibility in this custom designed NWN2 PW ?

electric mayhem wrote:And... where does one draw the line if this became a possibility in this custom designed NWN2 PW ?

I feel like a player lich would be a KOS sort of thing, for both under dark and surface. Would require you submit an application ect. I personally wouldn't think it was too much of a problem as long as the person was OK with being brutally killed all the time and as long as they had strict requirements, like needing 10 levels as a Cleric or 10 levels as Pale Master as a req or something.

Rask wrote:

electric mayhem wrote:And... where does one draw the line if this became a possibility in this custom designed NWN2 PW ?

I feel like a player lich would be a KOS sort of thing, for both under dark and surface. Would require you submit an application ect. I personally wouldn't think it was too much of a problem as long as the person was OK with being brutally killed all the time and as long as they had strict requirements, like needing 10 levels as a Cleric or 10 levels as Pale Master as a req or something.

Kill on Sight... Makes good sense if they know its an undead, however many liches learn to disguise their undead nature via magical means - for instance disguise undead, which is a 2nd level wizard spell, gentle repose would also help with this, especially if this is being used very early on as it preserves the corpse, gentle repose it both arcane and divine being level 3 and 2 respectively.

Actually, a player would be able to become a lich as early as level 11 as the requirements to crafting the phylactery and tying ones soul to it aren't that high, they're high enough compared to the traditional powerscale.

Additionally, both wizards and clerics can normally be become this as both classes can get what is needed to create the phylactery and tying their soul to it. In fact anyone with a caster level of 11 could become such.

The basic requirement is to have the craft wondrous item feat and have a caster level of 11.
The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

An additional note: Not all liches are evil, for intance the Baelnorn, or archliches.

Furthermore, I think this also touches on the subject good vs. evil, more so, good characters vs. evil characters. Personally I feel both sides should rp'able and both should be able to further their cause through rp.

Incarnate wrote: Actually, a player would be able to become a lich as early as level 11 as the requirements to crafting the phylactery and tying ones soul to it aren't that high, they're high enough compared to the traditional powerscale.

Additionally, both wizards and clerics can normally be become this as both classes can get what is needed to create the phylactery and tying their soul to it. In fact anyone with a caster level of 11 could become such.

The basic requirement is to have the craft wondrous item feat and have a caster level of 11.
The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

An additional note: Not all liches are evil, for intance the Baelnorn, or archliches.

I love liches as well, but you also should understand one thing: on BGTSCC players are 30th levels only for purposes of mechanic. You are not an epic character by "lore": you are much, much weaker (around lvl 8 max, as I heared somewhere): thats why Balors, Dragon, or Giant King have tons (thousands) of HP here: to adjust your level, like you are low-lvl. Works good enough, if you are not power-builder. Playing lich is actually playing like a dragon in purposes of strength.
For such players, Pale Master or Dragon Disciple offer much possibilities. You really should consider playing as a Pale Master.
He is almost undead: you even have one skeletal hand. Nothing stops you roleplaying partly-skinless face with bones visible as well, as I know. It is a very decent choice for a lich-lovers, if you know, how to play it, I assure you.

CormyrElite wrote:

Incarnate wrote: Actually, a player would be able to become a lich as early as level 11 as the requirements to crafting the phylactery and tying ones soul to it aren't that high, they're high enough compared to the traditional powerscale.

Additionally, both wizards and clerics can normally be become this as both classes can get what is needed to create the phylactery and tying their soul to it. In fact anyone with a caster level of 11 could become such.

The basic requirement is to have the craft wondrous item feat and have a caster level of 11.
The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

An additional note: Not all liches are evil, for intance the Baelnorn, or archliches.

I love liches as well, but you also should understand one thing: on BGTSCC players are 30th levels only for purposes of mechanic. You are not an epic character by "lore": you are much, much weaker (around lvl 8 max, as I heared somewhere): thats why Balors, Dragon, or Giant King have tons (thousands) of HP here: to adjust your level, like you are low-lvl. Works good enough, if you are not power-builder. Playing lich is actually playing like a dragon in purposes of strength.
For such players, Pale Master or Dragon Disciple offer much possibilities. You really should consider playing as a Pale Master.
He is almost undead: you even have one skeletal hand. Nothing stops you roleplaying partly-skinless face with bones visible as well, as I know. It is a very decent choice for a lich-lovers, if you know, how to play it, I assure you.

You know, level 11 isn't epic by any means, right?

In terms of playing a lich thats straight out of the "gate", thats not similar to playing a dragon in terms of power and strength.

Lets examine the standard lich template, shall we?



"Lich" is a template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the "character"), provided it can create the required phylactery. The creature's type changes to "undead." It uses all the character's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Hit Dice: Increase to d12

Speed: Same as the character

AC: The lich has +5 natural armor or the character's natural armor, whichever is better.

Damage: Creatures without natural weapons gain a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save with a DC of 10 1/2 lich's HD + lich's Charisma modifier reduces the damage by half. Creatures with natural attacks can use their natural weaponry or use the touch attack, as they prefer.

Special Attacks: A lich retains all the character's special attacks and also gains those listed below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 lich's HD + lich's Charisma modifier unless noted otherwise.

Fear Aura (Su): Liches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the lich must succeed at a Will save or be affected as though by fear as cast by a sorcerer of the lich's level.

Paralyzing Touch (Su): Any living creature the lich touches must succeed at a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell). The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a lich seems dead, though a successful Spot check (DC 20) or Heal check (DC 15) reveals that the victim is still alive. This power works in conjunction with the lich's damaging touch (see above).

Spells: The lich can cast any spells it could cast while alive.

Special Qualities: A lich retains all the character's special qualities and those listed below, and also gains the undead type.

Turn Resistance (Ex): A lich has +4 turn resistance.

Damage Reduction (Su): A lich's undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/+1.

Immunities (Ex): liches are immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.

Saves: Same as the character

Abilities: A lich gains +2 to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, but being undead, has no Constitution score.

Skills: Liches receive a +8 racial bonus to Hide, Listen, Move Silently Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the character.

Feats: Same as the character.

Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground

Organization: Solitary or troupe (1 lich, plus 2-4 vampires and 5-8 vampire spawn)

Challenge Rating: Same as the character + 2

Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; double items

Alignment: Any evil

Advancement: By character class

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The above certainly is powerful but certainly doesn't seem like the power of that of a dragon, far from it. Especially not if its just a newly created lich at level 11. However as with getting power it also gains weaknesses, for one it can be turned, it doesn't have a constitution score, most would hate you, etc.

Notice it in the template states: (referred to hereafter as the "character") - not monster, not creature, not NPC but Character.

Such a character should be playing to furthering evil agendas, which I think a player character should be able to do.

Incarnate wrote:As the subject - Somehow I reckon one would not be able to on this server as it would have some real issues. According to the nwn2 wiki, it seems its actually possible, the question is if its actually possible on this server, and if so what does it actually require?

Yes.

It requires getting DMs involved, and I believe at least one person was able to do that.

Keep in mind that upon successful or unsuccessful you'll have to give up your character.

Incarnate wrote:Why would anyone work at becoming such if not being able to play the power they've become?

It makes an awesome ending to character's story.

If you want to play an ACTUAL lich, Sigil is better choice. (I think it isn't completely dead yet)

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Even if you were allowed to be a lich on bgtscc, your life would be very short - you'd very quickly run into level 30 cleric with true seeing and 80 spot who would obliterate your character. Undead cannot be raised, once they're destroyed, they're gone.

NegInfinity wrote:

Incarnate wrote:Why would anyone work at becoming such if not being able to play the power they've become?

It makes an awesome ending to character's story.

Even if you were allowed to be a lich on bgtscc, your life would be very short - you'd very quickly run into level 30 cleric with true seeing and 80 spot who would obliterate your character. Undead cannot be raised, once they're destroyed, they're gone.

Why would one willingly end ones character's story just to become a lich? It only would make sense for two reasonse. 1/ They don't want to play that character any longer. 2/ To be able to say I made history - I added a lich.

A cleric with True Seeing, eh? Non-detection, that is not illusion but abjuration and it makes divinating the target difficult.

Nondetection
[Abjuration]
The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.

If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature’s gear as well as the creature itself.

Source: d20SRD.org

So, if spell focus or greater spell focus (abjuration) is chosen, then it would be even harder to actually succeed on.

Another note about True seeing, it only extends to 120 feet and is negated by mundane means and there exists magical items that will negate its effect. You can also hide from it via mundane means, like staying behind objects that would impart concealment, and you can also use disguises - where as if someone was disguised mundanely you'd not even be allowed a check if your character have no reason to be suspicious. Another key point here, unless your character is constantly under the effects of true seeing, he'd have to a good reason for casting it, so like for instance say the lich is under an invisibility and non-detection spell, you'd litterally would not know it was there, UNLESS something caught your attention or you had to cast it for a different reason and thus revealing the lich - but what you see isn't necessarily a lich - because what you see depends solely on the appearance of the character and your perception of the character, so if what you see is robed and hooded figure you see, you probably would think "oh thats a wizard" - you wouldn't just go "LIIIICH!!!" - even if the character wasn't masked or hooded, it wouldn't be easily as identifiable as an undead a skeleton or a zombie would be. Because true seeing only lets you see through illusions, and with clothing being the mundane part you'd see the clothing first and foremost - the actual part of finding out that its a lich comes from interacting with it and observing it without what is masking its identity. There are also magical items that will negate true seeing as well as other spells, because if there is created something that isn't an illusion in front of your line of sight to the lich then you won't see through it. Another important note here, true seeing DOESN'T IMPART ANY KNOWLEDGE, so just looking at the well preserved lich as a result of gentle repose wouldn't necessarily mean you'd know what was in front of you was actually a lich, this information is something the character would have to logically deduce.

Dust of Disappearance
This dust looks just like dust of appearance and is typically stored in the same manner. A creature or object touched by it becomes invisible (as greater invisibility). Normal vision can’t see dusted creatures or objects, nor can they be detected by magical means, including see invisibility or invisibility purge. Dust of appearance, however, does reveal people and objects made invisible by dust of disappearance. Other factors, such as sound and smell, also allow possible detection.

The greater invisibility bestowed by the dust lasts for 2d6 rounds.The invisible creature doesn’t know when the duration will end.

Moderate illusion; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, greater invisibility; Price 3,500 gp.

Source: d20SRD.org

The magic item above is one the most common ways to deal with true seeing, whether in the game or not isn't important, the point is that liches normally has an arsenal of ways to hide what they are, including negating or fooling the true seeing spell.

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electric mayhem wrote:And... where does one draw the line if this became a possibility in this custom designed NWN2 PW ?

Personally I think there should be other types available too, simply to expand on what is currently possible to play - of course within limits. Though this ties into more factional type of play. But being able to play liches, vampires, undead (not mindless-example the necropolitans), demons, devils, full-blooded orcs (savage orcs), celestials and other types would open up to a lot rp possibilities. I'm not saying that it should be open to just about anyone and everyone or what should be available should be like every kind within those - certainly not. However I do believe opening up for these types to be rp'ed would also open up some new avenues of rp, of course these types also would need other places to play and have their homes than the typical ones. And of course guidelines to playing such respectively needs to set, same goes with the that the players that choose to play such characters has to acknowledge that there will open hostility towards them from other characters - both for the sake of rp and lore integrity but also for the player's game experience.

The DM team faced a lot of backlash and calls of favourtism in terms of handing out powerful items and grandfathered gear a few years back. I think these complaints have lessened because of the epic shop which allows common players to get items on similar level of power.

Having powerful classes or character races that are granted by DMs would only bring back calls of favourtism and resentment from players who dont get that power, or DM attention needed to achieve it.

Yes there are application only classes that require DM approval, but those are in place for RP integrity.

If you are not aware: server does not follow PnP rules entirely, and administration acts as it wants to, and often it is against the actual DnD rules. Let's call it "homebrew".
So, you have to stick with team's decision, as all of us. Does not matter if we like it or not.

PiaMango wrote:The DM team faced a lot of backlash and calls of favourtism in terms of handing out powerful items and grandfathered gear a few years back. I think these complaints have lessened because of the epic shop which allows common players to get items on similar level of power.

Having powerful classes or character races that are granted by DMs would only bring back calls of favourtism and resentment from players who dont get that power, or DM attention needed to achieve it.

Yes there are application only classes that require DM approval, but those are in place for RP integrity.

Actually, if these are possible to achieve in game for anyone who does what its needed, then I don't think the DM's would suffer for it.

Like say, the player that wants the character in question to become a lich, does all the necessary steps to become this - if it requires dm's do something mechanically to make it happen, then as long as they do it for anyone who's eligible and who has done what it requires to become it, then there shouldn't be any issue of favourtism - as anyone would be treated as equal to persue it. If then the player has a bad experience as a result of playing such, then its inherently the player's own UNLESS bad rp took place with metagaming and what not.

CormyrElite wrote:If you are not aware: server does not follow PnP rules entirely, and administration acts as it wants to, and often it is against the actual DnD rules. Let's call it "homebrew".
So, you have to stick with team's decision, as all of us. Does not matter if we like it or not.

Oh I've become exceedingly expedient aware of it. I would argue that it does matter if we like it or not, as we're the players, especially if they keep going against the dnd rules and goes against what the playerbase wants, then people will begin to leave at some point. You know as they say: "The customer is always right" - that is not true all the time, but I think you get the jest of it here. Although I don't think people would leave because of this, but thats generally how it works. Besides I think its only good to keep an open mind about these sorts of things, especially since they can dramatically enhance rp possibilities.