Make shapechange great again

[GholaMan]

Yeah the AC was very high but it wasn't OP considering there are mobs out there with 60+ AB. The build came about because of the mobs on the server because there are enough bosses on the server to warrant a build that makes it very hard to kill. Are you suggesting that arachnomancer or shifter are going to have AC in the 70's? That only those classes should be having great defenses? Then what about druids, who can basically do everything a shaman can do but better? Why is it a problem for a shaman to have 70+ AC but it isn't a problem for a shifter or a druid? What exactly is the problem with a shaman having very high AC?

Was it even taken into consideration the abysmal amount of offence shaman/monks have? Yeah an RCR gee thanks, let me just RCR the RP that I have been doing on that character too. Oh wait it doesn't actually work like that. And what about gear that I have picked out for my character, that isn't going to get refunded for equivalent equipment that I would need. Your flippant attitude about this is really irksome. Yeah an RCR will give me a useable build but it wont actually fix the fact that it would be an entire character change.

Except the bulls STR wasn't applying in nightwalker so instead of a +16 str mod you end up with a +14.

And as far as fighting outside of shapechange, I would say things work about average for most spirit shaman builds, meaning the damage you deal is good however your AB, even if you do a STR build is pretty bad. Outside of Bulls STR and consumables there is 0 ways for shaman to buff their AB

[Sun Wukong]

(I do not have any Spell Focus: Transmutation feats.)

Shadow Shield: +5 AC (Natural Armor Enchantment)
Improved Mage Armor: +6 AC (Armor Enchantment)
Shield: +4 AC (Shield Enchantment)
Animalist Power: +1 AC (+2 Dexterity Enchantment)
= 16 AC

The AC was only increased by 14 though.

[Endelyon]

My guess at first glance would be the giant already has a +2 armor bonus from some item it's equipped with, so you're only getting a 4 yield from IMA. I'd have to look in the toolset to verify that for sure though.

[Sun Wukong]

What exactly is the problem with a shaman having very high AC?

The same problem as there is with any other build having a very high AC. In order for a mob to hit, they need to roll 20. Thus in order to provide 'challenge' the mobs will have to hit harder, or have higher AB, or increased number of attacks. Things that make things a lot more harder for the lower AC characters.

Was it even taken into consideration the abysmal amount of offence shaman/monks have?

+1d4 damage from Thorn Skin, +1d8 damage from Flame/Frost Weapon, +3d6 damage from Storm Avatar.

Creeping Cold spells, fortitude for half. Spike Growth spell, 1d4 damage per round over a very long time period as an area of effect. Ice Storm spell, it has no save. Inferno spell, 2d6 fire damage per round over a very long time period. Creeping Doom spell on a wisdom based build is always brutal against no DR, low AC targets. Harms and Heals are blunt 75 damage on a failed save. Storm of Vengeance spell, an AoE of effect damage that does not care if you make saves or not. Whirlwind spell doesn't seem to have DC based on either charisma or wisdom. Fire Seeds spell apparently creates Perfected Firebombs to throw around at a minute cost. Heartfire spell deals 1d4 damage over time that is halved with fortitude save. Splinter Bolt deals 12d6 physical damage in three bolts, it can score a critical hit, doesn't have a save, and is just a level 2 spell.

I used to have a Spirit Shaman 20/Hospitaler 10 on this server with maxed out wisdom and base 16 strength. BAB of 25, +5 AB from buffed up strength modifier, and +4 AB from a weapon enchantment bonus. At low levels the melee wasn't that bad, but in late epics I switched to reserve feat spam (Acidic Splatter) while sitting under that Storm of Vengeance. It allowed me to solo areas other people needed parties, and even if I got dispelled I could just rebuff with ease. And yeah, I could do some offensive spell flinging too if I wanted to. Not to mention that Zen Archery with any ranged weapon was bit fun too. This was several years ago and things have changed since then. But while I had that character, new things were added, and I actually had to do several RCRs at my own expense. Few times my equipment was even nicked from the Nexus.

I image a Monk/Spirit Shaman/Sacred Fist has roughly the same BAB.

Except the bulls STR wasn't applying in nightwalker so instead of a +16 str mod you end up with a +14.

That is strange indeed, it worked fine on my Sorcerer-gish.

And as far as fighting outside of shapechange, I would say things work about average for most spirit shaman builds, meaning the damage you deal is good however your AB, even if you do a STR build is pretty bad. Outside of Bulls STR and consumables there is 0 ways for shaman to buff their AB

Spirit Shaman builds built for AB can reach 40+, which ought to be enough on this server.

[Sun Wukong]

My guess at first glance would be the giant already has a +2 armor bonus from some item it's equipped with, so you're only getting a 4 yield from IMA. I'd have to look in the toolset to verify that for sure though.

Also a peculiar thing is the +1 constitution in the shape. I do have some +1 constitution item on me, or does the shape itself come with a +1 constitution bonus?

[Steve]

And, there is the difference of Nachti's Fire Giant having 13 DEX, Sun's having 11 DEX, and mine having 9 DEX.

[Blame The Rogue]

just my 2 cents, but if staff felt it necessary to nerf SS/monks, they could have forbade SSs from multi-classing with monks, like they did with druids

i don't currently have a SS, but have played them in the past. the wisdom/chr split for dc/spells per day was always hard for me to deal with

i don't feel they needed a nerf. and i feel monk just helped cover for SSs shortcomings, that i mentioned above

it seems most aren't happy with the new shapes

[Endelyon]

most aren't happy with the new shapes

I feel like "most" might be a stretch--it can certainly be argued at least that "most of the people posting in the thread about being unhappy with the new shapes are unhappy about the new shapes," but I wouldn't say most of the community is in an uproar. I tried them all out myself on a wizard character and I thought they were quite good.

There are definitely some kinks we need to work out and balancing we need to do. Like anything it's a WIP.

[Blame The Rogue]

apologies, didn't mean to sound negative. is not my intent

all i can say for certain, is that those i have spoken with in game, are not happy with many of the shapes

[GholaMan]

The same problem as there is with any other build having a very high AC. In order for a mob to hit, they need to roll 20. Thus in order to provide 'challenge' the mobs will have to hit harder, or have higher AB, or increased number of attacks. Things that make things a lot more harder for the lower AC characters.

Except there are not just normal mobs on the server there are bosses which can still hit your AC.

Creeping Cold spells, fortitude for half. Spike Growth spell, 1d4 damage per round over a very long time period as an area of effect. Ice Storm spell, it has no save. Inferno spell, 2d6 fire damage per round over a very long time period. Creeping Doom spell on a wisdom based build is always brutal against no DR, low AC targets. Harms and Heals are blunt 75 damage on a failed save. Storm of Vengeance spell, an AoE of effect damage that does not care if you make saves or not. Whirlwind spell doesn't seem to have DC based on either charisma or wisdom. Fire Seeds spell apparently creates Perfected Firebombs to throw around at a minute cost. Heartfire spell deals 1d4 damage over time that is halved with fortitude save. Splinter Bolt deals 12d6 physical damage in three bolts, it can score a critical hit, doesn't have a save, and is just a level 2 spell.

I used to have a Spirit Shaman 20/Hospitaler 10 on this server with maxed out wisdom and base 16 strength. BAB of 25, +5 AB from buffed up strength modifier, and +4 AB from a weapon enchantment bonus. At low levels the melee wasn't that bad, but in late epics I switched to reserve feat spam (Acidic Splatter) while sitting under that Storm of Vengeance. It allowed me to solo areas other people needed parties, and even if I got dispelled I could just rebuff with ease. And yeah, I could do some offensive spell flinging too if I wanted to. Not to mention that Zen Archery with any ranged weapon was bit fun too. This was several years ago and things have changed since then. But while I had that character, new things were added, and I actually had to do several RCRs at my own expense. Few times my equipment was even nicked from the Nexus.

I image a Monk/Spirit Shaman/Sacred Fist has roughly the same BAB.

My build comes out to 24 BAB so yeah similar in that regard, but not as far as AB goes. And I am well aware of the offensive capabilities of druid spells. However those spells are not relevant in shapechange. Even with all the damage buffs to melee you still have to be able to beat a critter's AC in order to do so. If you are going for an AC defensive build it in no way behooves you to go STR. You stack Wisdom instead. The total AB for my character with +4 gear is 31, 29 with flurry. The offensives are really not great, without shapechange, you are a good party buffer/spell spammer with decent defences. Shapechange is an essential spell for the build. It turns something that is mediocre or blah into good.

Spirit Shaman builds built for AB can reach 40+, which ought to be enough on this server

Except you know, the people who didn't build for AB, who instead built for AC and have a long list of defensive spells instead of offensive ones. So you know you could be a healer or a tank.

[Sun Wukong]

Speaking of the Hydra form, it is listed to have 'extra' attacks, but in reality it just has permanent haste. Could the Hydra form get temporary Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat and dual wield its creature weapon? Hydra heads are supposed to make a lot of attacks.

Hmn... with dual wielding It could get permanent expeditious retreat instead of haste.

Additionally, the Hydra form is not always able to transition between areas. One example would be from Boareskyr Bridge transition to Soubar.

Except there are not just normal mobs on the server there are bosses which can still hit your AC.

Bossess are a fine challenge to hit your head against once you have hit level 30 and no longer lose experience upon death. Yet they are not truly necessary content on this server. In one sense or another.

My build comes out to 24 BAB so yeah similar in that regard, but not as far as AB goes. And I am well aware of the offensive capabilities of druid spells. However those spells are not relevant in shapechange. Even with all the damage buffs to melee you still have to be able to beat a critter's AC in order to do so. If you are going for an AC defensive build it in no way behooves you to go STR. You stack Wisdom instead. The total AB for my character with +4 gear is 31, 29 with flurry. The offensives are really not great, without shapechange, you are a good party buffer/spell spammer with decent defences. Shapechange is an essential spell for the build. It turns something that is mediocre or blah into good.

Most of the spells I listed are damage over time spells. You can cast them prior to Shapechange and the damage piles up over time. The total AB with my build was 34 with that +4 equipment. With a single cast of Shapechange it became 41 in the Nightwalker form and for your build I believe it was 32 with that code of conduct penalty. Moreover, I assume that your build took took -8 AB penalty just to gain +3 AC from Sacred Fist. It would have been more sensible to just leave Sacred Fist out and go for a Monk 4/Spirit Shaman 26 build.

Except you know, the people who didn't build for AB, who instead built for AC and have a long list of defensive spells instead of offensive ones. So you know you could be a healer or a tank.

Spirit Shamans get to pick 4 to 6 different spells per spell level and even with all the custom spells tthat long list of defensive spells does not exclude offensive spells. My Spirit Shaman Hospitaler was a healer, a tank, and an offensive caster. I could throw Heals and spam those healing kits if I wanted. I could turn on ICE while wearing that Full-Plate with a Tower Shield, and keep that 30/DR and Extended Regeneration active until the server hit reset. I could spam offensive spells if I wanted. And due to being a spontaneous spellcaster, I could switch role on the fly.

[AC81]

The change is fair I think - using shapechange to stack AC (especially from a monk's wisdom bonus) seems like an exploit.

Another thing touched on here - why is flurry active while shapechanged? There is no way that should be allowed, especially as everyone knows flurry is bugged to give an extra attack at highest AB with no penalty. Monks training should only apply to their natural form imo.

[GholaMan]

Bossess are a fine challenge to hit your head against once you have hit level 30 and no longer lose experience upon death. Yet they are not truly necessary content on this server. In one sense or another.

Well you could level to 30 with just RP XP so in that regard you could say that any grinding area is not needed. But anyway that's just your opinion, lots of people on the server enjoy the challenge of coming up with builds that can stand up to those ungodly creations. Also as a side note grinding bosses is probably the fastest way to level up outside of weekly quests.

Most of the spells I listed are damage over time spells. You can cast them prior to Shapechange and the damage piles up over time. The total AB with my build was 34 with that +4 equipment. With a single cast of Shapechange it became 41 in the Nightwalker form and for your build I believe it was 32 with that code of conduct penalty. Moreover, I assume that your build took took -8 AB penalty just to gain +3 AC from Sacred Fist. It would have been more sensible to just leave Sacred Fist out and go for a Monk 4/Spirit Shaman 26 build.

I don't know why you are trying to convince me a WIS based shaman doesn't have anything but mediocre offence. Also there is the 4AC you get from sacred shield on top of the 3 you get passively. So I actually traded -8AB for 7AC, but anyway the point is shaman/monk's offense isn't strong enough to warrant the loss of defence. And I am using classes like druid to point out that you can get comparable AC and defences with WAY more utility, and offensive power. I mean just plain 30 druid is in almost every way better except in terms of shapechanged AC. Literally that's the only thing its better at.

Spirit Shamans get to pick 4 to 6 different spells per spell level and even with all the custom spells tthat long list of defensive spells does not exclude offensive spells. My Spirit Shaman Hospitaler was a healer, a tank, and an offensive caster. I could throw Heals and spam those healing kits if I wanted. I could turn on ICE while wearing that Full-Plate with a Tower Shield, and keep that 30/DR and Extended Regeneration active until the server hit reset. I could spam offensive spells if I wanted. And due to being a spontaneous spellcaster, I could switch role on the fly.

Hey if you are fine with your build's power level than all the more power too you. But you did just post this.

Bossess are a fine challenge to hit your head against once you have hit level 30 and no longer lose experience upon death. Yet they are not truly necessary content on this server. In one sense or another.

I on the other hand enjoy fighting bosses and winning, its not head bashing if you can actually clear the challenge.

[Sun Wukong]

So you are saying that your build could solo bosses without any amount of head bashing? Head bashing means figuring out what the boss actually does, its AB, AC, abilities, resistances, spells, etc. I guess that could be an answer to one your earlier questions.

Oh and I do not know what is this Sacred Shield of yours, but there is:

Inner Armour

At 10th level, a sacred fist may use inner armour once per day. This provides +4 sacred bonus to AC, +4 sacred bonus to all saves, 25 spell resistance for a number of rounds equal to his wisdom modifier.

Monk/Spirit Shaman with ICE would have worked better.

[the_flame_of_anor]

Never shapechanged before, so a newbie question here:

Does AC and properties from gear transfer to the shapechanged form just like how wildshape does?