Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Sun Wukong wrote:

Incarnate wrote:What do you think of the build I made?

You have multiclassing experience penalty. A big no-no, and you've taken Automatic: Still spell 0-3 without the feats to extend it to 4-9. Not to mention that you do not have shield or heavier armor proficiency than light. Hence it feels a bit wasted.

And sadly, I do not think it is quite possible, since Bronze dragons are Lawful Good, and Blue Dragons are Lawful Evil.

Anyhow... I did put this together for you: http://nwn2db.com/build/?283358 (It avoids the multiclassing experience penalty.)

Dragon Knight Epic spell: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Dragon_Knight (Might not be released yet, but reaching level 29 takes time anyhow.)

From what I can see, it doesn't avoid the xp penalty, the reason being Aasimar's favored class is paladin, as such with this build it seems it cannot be avoided, unless a different race is taken, so at the very least either human either of the half-elfs would should do. So what change did you make that should've made it avoid the xp penalty?

I know its an issue with the alignment for the DraD to get the Blue Dragon, although not impossible, but it will require an alignment change before going into the PrC - but otherwise either of the others will do. That the blue was put there was really just more as a reminder that its preferred to be blue if possible.

As I can see Bard qualifies for the the DraD, so I'm wondering, what are the benefits from taking sorcerer class levels - to extend sorcerer progression? From what I can see from the wiki, the DraD can also progress bard spellcasting, but from what I can see maximum spell level would be six. I'm wondering if spell level 9 could be achieved, I don't think it will be possible to get that due to 3b20 rule.

I'm trying put together a tougher build based on the two suggested builds, getting armor profiency medium and battle caster, just to see how that would like like.

Yes, the Dragon Knight spell would make good sense to put in there, though it requires spell level 9.

Incarnate wrote:From what I can see, it doesn't avoid the xp penalty, the reason being Aasimar's favored class is paladin, as such with this build it seems it cannot be avoided, unless a different race is taken, so at the very least either human either of the half-elfs would should do. So what change did you make that should've made it avoid the xp penalty?

PRC classes do not count towards multiclassing experience penalty, only the base classes do. But as long as the two or more non-favored base classes are within one level of each other, there is no multiclassing experience penalty.

Thus an Aasimar Bard 2/Sorcerer 3 would be without multiclassing experience penalty, while an Aasimar Bard 1/Sorcerer 4 would suffer from the multiclassing experience penalty.

Now if you look at the build I put together, you are only hit by the multiclassing experience penalty once you have already reached level 30. In otherwords, once you have reached the maximum level, you start to suffer from the multiclassing experience penalty.

With your original build, I think you suffered from multiclassing experience penalty starting from level 7. My build remains untouched by it.

Additionally, with that particular leveling order you can decrease the need to get the Able Learner feat. This aspect could be improved by mixing the Stormsinger and Dragon Disciple levels with each other.

Incarnate wrote:I know its an issue with the alignment for the DraD to get the Blue Dragon, although not impossible, but it will require an alignment change before going into the PrC - but otherwise either of the others will do. That the blue was put there was really just more as a reminder that its preferred to be blue if possible.

I know, but I just like to clarify things in case someone else stumbles on my build.

Incarnate wrote:As I can see Bard qualifies for the the DraD, so I'm wondering, what are the benefits from taking sorcerer class levels - to extend sorcerer progression? From what I can see from the wiki, the DraD can also progress bard spellcasting, but from what I can see maximum spell level would be six. I'm wondering if spell level 9 could be achieved, I don't think it will be possible to get that due to 3b20 rule.

The builder does not have this server's custom Dragon Disciple class. By default 'RDD' offers no spellcasting progression, but on this server it offers spell casting progression of 7/10, and you have to choose between Sorcerer and Bard progression. With sorcerer you can have access to more electric spells, and you can better twist them around with metamagic. Bard does not exactly have electrical spells beyond the Stormsinger PRC.

At level 20 the build will have 16 spellcasting progression levels and the caster level of 20. You get your 20th spellcasting progression level at level 25, and first 9th level spell at level 22.

The build order is in accordance of the 3 by 20 rule. You have to have 3 levels in all your classes by level 20. (At level 20 you will have Bard 3/Sorcerer 3/Stormsinger 10/Dragon Disciple 4)

Incarnate wrote:I'm trying put together a tougher build based on the two suggested builds, getting armor profiency medium and battle caster, just to see how that would like like.

Battle Caster only works with Bardic spellcasting. A sorcerer will have to get Automatic: Still Spell to cast in armor, or cast spells usign the Still Spell metamagic feat.

If you are willing to drop Stormsinger, you could potentially go for a build such as: Sorcerer 7/Blackguard 3/Arcane Scholar 10/Blue Dragon Disciple 10. The Arcane Scholar lets you have metamagic feats that twist and turn your limited spell selection into something more useable. The Blackguard levels grant armor and shield proficiencies, and Turn Undead for Divine Shield.

Would you like me to put together a build?

Incarnate wrote:Yes, the Dragon Knight spell would make good sense to put in there.

Hopefully next update comes along fast.

Sun Wukong wrote:Battle Caster only works with Bardic spellcasting. A sorcerer will have to get Automatic: Still Spell to cast in armor, or cast spells usign the Still Spell metamagic feat.

If you are willing to drop Stormsinger, you could potentially go for a build such as: Sorcerer 7/Blackguard 3/Arcane Scholar 10/Blue Dragon Disciple 10. The Arcane Scholar lets you have metamagic feats that twist and turn your limited spell selection into something more useable. The Blackguard levels grant armor and shield proficiencies, and Turn Undead for Divine Shield.

Would you like me to put together a build?

The blackguard needs +7 BAB, so it would be something like Sorc7/DraD6 before any blackguard levels can be put in - I wouldn't mind seeing how such a build would look like.

Based on your feedback I made some changes to the build.

I've also attempted to create a Sorcerer 7/Blackguard 3/Arcane Scholar 10/Blue Dragon Disciple 10 build - This can be seen here.
Not sure if its better to have dragon disciple first or in the end, and where its ideal to put the blackguard.

Its lacking feats from level 20 - suggestions needed.

Incarnate wrote:

Sun Wukong wrote:Battle Caster only works with Bardic spellcasting. A sorcerer will have to get Automatic: Still Spell to cast in armor, or cast spells usign the Still Spell metamagic feat.

If you are willing to drop Stormsinger, you could potentially go for a build such as: Sorcerer 7/Blackguard 3/Arcane Scholar 10/Blue Dragon Disciple 10. The Arcane Scholar lets you have metamagic feats that twist and turn your limited spell selection into something more useable. The Blackguard levels grant armor and shield proficiencies, and Turn Undead for Divine Shield.

Would you like me to put together a build?

The blackguard needs +7 BAB, so it would be something like Sorc7/DraD6 before any blackguard levels can be put in - I wouldn't mind seeing how such a build would look like.

Based on your feedback I made some changes to the build.

I've also attempted to create a Sorcerer 7/Blackguard 3/Arcane Scholar 10/Blue Dragon Disciple 10 build - This can be seen here.
Not sure if its better to have dragon disciple first or in the end, and where its ideal to put the blackguard.

Its lacking feats from level 20 - suggestions needed.

BGTSCC has 3b20 rule: that means, that you must have 3 levels at each class you posess before reaching 20th level. It is done to avoid powerbuilding.

CormyrElite wrote:

Incarnate wrote:

Sun Wukong wrote:Battle Caster only works with Bardic spellcasting. A sorcerer will have to get Automatic: Still Spell to cast in armor, or cast spells usign the Still Spell metamagic feat.

If you are willing to drop Stormsinger, you could potentially go for a build such as: Sorcerer 7/Blackguard 3/Arcane Scholar 10/Blue Dragon Disciple 10. The Arcane Scholar lets you have metamagic feats that twist and turn your limited spell selection into something more useable. The Blackguard levels grant armor and shield proficiencies, and Turn Undead for Divine Shield.

Would you like me to put together a build?

The blackguard needs +7 BAB, so it would be something like Sorc7/DraD6 before any blackguard levels can be put in - I wouldn't mind seeing how such a build would look like.

Based on your feedback I made some changes to the build.

I've also attempted to create a Sorcerer 7/Blackguard 3/Arcane Scholar 10/Blue Dragon Disciple 10 build - This can be seen here.
Not sure if its better to have dragon disciple first or in the end, and where its ideal to put the blackguard.

Its lacking feats from level 20 - suggestions needed.

BGTSCC has 3b20 rule: that means, that you must have 3 levels at each class you posess before reaching 20th level. It is done to avoid powerbuilding.

I know about the 3b20 rule, so no real need to explain it and why its there.

Incarnate wrote:Based on your feedback I made some changes to the build.

This build violates the 3by20 rule. Basically, you can take away the sorcerer levels from level 4 to 7, and place them at the end of your level order, after everything else. This will move enough levels of Dragon Disciple before level 20 for the build to be legal. Moreover, it will delay your multiclassing experience penalty to as late point as possible.

Incarnate wrote:I've also attempted to create a Sorcerer 7/Blackguard 3/Arcane Scholar 10/Blue Dragon Disciple 10 build - This can be seen here.
Not sure if its better to have dragon disciple first or in the end, and where its ideal to put the blackguard.

The Dragon Disciple on BGTSCC requires 5th level spells, so this is 'Sorcerer 10' requirement. Or 'Sorcerer 6/Arcane SCholar 4'... Anyhow, I put this together: http://nwn2db.com/build/?283393

Sun Wukong wrote:

Incarnate wrote:Based on your feedback I made some changes to the build.

This build violates the 3by20 rule. Basically, you can take away the sorcerer levels from level 4 to 7, and place them at the end of your level order, after everything else. This will move enough levels of Dragon Disciple before level 20 for the build to be legal. Moreover, it will delay your multiclassing experience penalty to as late point as possible.

Oh, so its class in the build that has to be taken before level 21? So for instance, you couldn't add 3 levels of something else after level 20 unless it was in the build before level 21?

The build should be good now - the sorcerer levels from 4-7 can be moved to the end - the reason they're put there is for the sake of having the epic spells reflected there and due to the DraD granting spell progression on the server they should be accessible at that point.

Sun Wukong wrote:

Incarnate wrote:I've also attempted to create a Sorcerer 7/Blackguard 3/Arcane Scholar 10/Blue Dragon Disciple 10 build - This can be seen here.
Not sure if its better to have dragon disciple first or in the end, and where its ideal to put the blackguard.

The Dragon Disciple on BGTSCC requires 5th level spells, so this is 'Sorcerer 10' requirement. Or 'Sorcerer 6/Arcane SCholar 4'... Anyhow, I put this together: http://nwn2db.com/build/?283393

Ooooh yes, thats true with the DraD on this server, I missed that one. But its not a sorc 10 but rather a sorc 9 requirement because the sorcerer gets 5'th level spells at level 9, unless their progression is also changed.

I've made some changes to my build here as well.

I'm taking a look at your build now.

Incarnate wrote: I've made some changes to my build here as well.

I'm taking a look at your build now.

Your build doesn't get Divine Shield, which can only be taken at a Blackguard level. (Level that grants turn undead progression.) Nor does your build get Still spell to cast spells while in armor.

Incarnate wrote:Ooooh yes, thats true with the DraD on this server, I missed that one. But its not a sorc 10 but rather a sorc 9 requirement because the sorcerer gets 5'th level spells at level 9, unless their progression is also changed.

That is true for wizards, sorcerers gain new spell levels at levels 4 (2), 6 (3), 8 (4), 10 (5), and so on.

Sun Wukong wrote: Your build doesn't get Divine Shield, which can only be taken at a Blackguard level. (Level that grants turn undead progression.) Nor does your build get Still spell to cast spells while in armor.

Updated it, so it does have divine shield. However, how exactly are you able to incorporate auto still spell at level 21, as the maximum skill level is character level+3, so at level 21 the skill cap is 24?

Prerequisites: 21st level, Still Spell, Spellcraft 27, ability to cast 9th level spells.

With this prereq. I can only get it to make sense at level 24, but at level 24 there isn't a feat selection.

[EDIT]
I notice now that the spellcraft is lowered to 24 on the server, that makes sense then.

Sun Wukong wrote:

Incarnate wrote:Ooooh yes, thats true with the DraD on this server, I missed that one. But its not a sorc 10 but rather a sorc 9 requirement because the sorcerer gets 5'th level spells at level 9, unless their progression is also changed.

That is true for wizards, sorcerers gain new spell levels at levels 4 (2), 6 (3), 8 (4), 10 (5), and so on.

You're right, just remembered it to follow the wizard progression. I've also updated it to reflect this. Still working on making getting auto still spell earlier, though I don't think its possible because the spellcraft skill for the blackguard is CROSS-CLASS.

I would drop the Rune of Thunder and get more Autostill.

You will not have enough feats for the Dragon Knight spell if you want the Storm Bolt reserve feat, however, you can select Shapechange as one of your 9th level sorcerer spells and that allows you to transform into a Blue Dragon. Your BAB is perhaps little too horrible to really make use of it, but it is an option available for you.

But...

18 (BAB) (4 attacks before haste)
+ 4 (Greater Heroism)
+ 13 (Strength modifier with Bull's Strength.)
+ 1 (Haste)
= 36

It is not the greatest melee ability, but you can do it if you want.

Sun Wukong wrote:I would drop the Rune of Thunder and get more Autostill.

You will not have enough feats for the Dragon Knight spell if you want the Storm Bolt reserve feat, however, you can select Shapechange as one of your 9th level sorcerer spells and that allows you to transform into a Blue Dragon. Your BAB is perhaps little too horrible to really make use of it, but it is an option available for you.

But...

18 (BAB) (4 attacks before haste)
+ 4 (Greater Heroism)
+ 13 (Strength modifier with Bull's Strength.)
+ 1 (Haste)
= 36

It is not the greatest melee ability, but you can do it if you want.

I dropped practiced spellcaster instead, since it will allow an infinite amount of castings, which certainly will help while levelling. Also I added notes to the build, as it is now it will be able to get the Dragon Knight spell.

Bard3/druid7/hierophant10/stormsinger10 with druid progression in the stormsinger. That should get you lots and lots of lightning.

Bard3/sorcerer7/asoc10/stormsinger10 also has a fair selection of lightning.

I think maybe bard3/cleric7/hierophant10/stormsinger10 is also decent for lightning spells.

Incarnate wrote:I dropped practiced spellcaster instead, since it will allow an infinite amount of castings, which certainly will help while levelling. Also I added notes to the build, as it is now it will be able to get the Dragon Knight spell.

Alright. Spells like Assay Resistance and Mordenkaine's Disjunction can be used to lower enemy Spell Resistance.

Deathgrowl wrote:Bard3/druid7/hierophant10/stormsinger10 with druid progression in the stormsinger. That should get you lots and lots of lightning.

Bard3/sorcerer7/asoc10/stormsinger10 also has a fair selection of lightning.

I think maybe bard3/cleric7/hierophant10/stormsinger10 is also decent for lightning spells.

These or variants of them have already been suggested, you're more than welcome to elaborate on why I should go for either of them - like for instance why the Bard3/druid7/hierophant10/stormsinger10 has lots of of lightning - I reckon its due to many elemental spells the druid gets access to? What makes them great individually?

For the divine caster approach the favoured sould could also be considered, and would probably be a good idea since charisma is being used alot already.

I'm currently between these two:

Bard 3 / Sorcerer 7 / Stormsinger 10 / Dragon Disciple 10
Sorcerer 7 / Dragon Disciple 10 / Arcane Scholar 10 / Blackguard 3

I'm open to more suggestions, including tweaks to the above.

Incarnate wrote:These or variants of them have already been suggested, you're more than welcome to elaborate on why I should go for either of them - like for instance why the Bard3/druid7/hierophant10/stormsinger10 has lots of of lightning - I reckon its due to many elemental spells the druid gets access to? What makes them great individually?

The druid has a spell that grants +12 Wisdom, which is +6 modifier, and +6 bonus on spell DCs. Moreover, you will have 'Storm of Vengeance' - a level 9 spell - to fuel the Storm Bolt and Rune of Storms. With the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list the best spell you can get is 'Chain Lightning' - a level 6 spell. Technically you would have two other spells with electrical damage, but apparently those do not fuel the reserve feats.

Generally speaking, Druids have the following electrical spells: Call Lightning (level 3), Arc of Lightning (level 4), Call Lightning Storm (level 5), Storm Avatar (Level 8), and Storm of Vengeance (level 9).

Moreover, they can freely wear armor and cast spells, which makes AC less of an issue. Not to mention that Talos as your deity is a pretty solid match.

The Hierophant can be used to gain additional caster levels, which increases your spell DCs.

Additionally, feat wise you only really need the following feats:

• Able Learner (For the ease of increasing skill points.)
• Spellcasting Prodigy (+1 Spell DCs)
• Empower Spell (Spell book management/Increased Damage))
• Maximise Spell (Spell book management/Increased Damage)
• Rune of Storms (What you wanted)
• Storm Bolt (What you wanted)
• Practised Spell Caster (Druid) (For as high caster level as possible)

Therefore as a human you got one pre-epic feat left to spend on whatever you fancy. Considering that you can maximise UMD thanks to the Bard levels, Craft Wand feat might be a pretty decent feat to consider as Wands of Flame Weapon do see some market, and you can use arcane scrolls to craft other wands.

The biggest downside of this character is basically the Stormsinger part as you do not exactly have a high charisma to boost the DC on the storm-songs. Hence, it is more of a thing slapped on rather than an actual feature.

But yeah, mechanically a Bard/Druid/Hierophant/Stormsinger is a solid build.

Incarnate wrote:Sorcerer 7 / Dragon Disciple 10 / Arcane Scholar 10 / Blackguard 3

I guess I should mention something about leveling this build, you should try to rely on magical equipment rather than your defensive spells for AC. It is not as big of an issue pre-epic, but during epic levels your maximum caster level of 24 is somewhat easily dispellable. There are areas without dispels, but this is a word of warning. Thus when you get your first level of Blackguard, you should switch to wearing a +4 fullplate and a +4 heavy shield and casting your spells through the Still Spell metamagic, until you get the Automatic: Still Spell feats.

Oh, and your AC will not be horrible thanks to base equipment and Divine Shield though. It will be higher with your buffs, but technically speaking you can focus your spell slots on maintaining concealment, mirror images, some immunity spells, and your list of eletrical spells.