Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Hoihe wrote:A contra that people seem to ignore.

One of the worst things about UD is the lack of population. If said population goes to the surface to grind, then there's even less population to interact with.

Valefort wrote:More epic areas in the Underdark would surely help people to stay there but player boredom is not a valid reason for going surface side. Those areas aren't going to appear out of thin air though, time to learn the toolset and help Cubicle guys, interior areas are not the worst thing to do.

Valefort wrote:The goal shouldn't be to multiply the interactions between surface and UD characters, the two should be set apart more firmly then they are now, with how easy it is to travel from one to another.

Understandable OOC reasons like good exp (good loot can be a perfectly valid IC one .. though I don't know why spiders are so rich) can also be removed by lowering the exp rate in Upperdark areas so that there's no big OOC incentive to stay there compared to other areas of similar CR.

More epic areas in the Underdark would surely help people to stay there but player boredom is not a valid reason for going surface side. Those areas aren't going to appear out of thin air though, time to learn the toolset and help Cubicle guys, interior areas are not the worst thing to do.

Valefort wrote:The goal shouldn't be to multiply the interactions between surface and UD characters, the two should be set apart more firmly then they are now, with how easy it is to travel from one to another.

Understandable OOC reasons like good exp (good loot can be a perfectly valid IC one .. though I don't know why spiders are so rich) can also be removed by lowering the exp rate in Upperdark areas so that there's no big OOC incentive to stay there compared to other areas of similar CR.

More epic areas in the Underdark would surely help people to stay there but player boredom is not a valid reason for going surface side. Those areas aren't going to appear out of thin air though, time to learn the toolset and help Cubicle guys, interior areas are not the worst thing to do.

Incarnate wrote:I really need to ask this - WHY is it important to limit IC interactions cross-realms? IC-interactions means RP, it might also mean PvP, but with the emphasis on RP and it being an RP server it make ZERO sense to limit the IC-interaction possibilities cross-realm. In fact, its downright counter-productive to RP to have a rule that disallows travelling cross-realm, having a mechanic that removes a huge incentive for going cross-realm and mind you none of of the bad things that comes with going into the dangerous cross-realm have been removed, so for instance if you die, you could be losing a hefty amount of xp.

adobongmanok wrote:

Incarnate wrote:I really need to ask this - WHY is it important to limit IC interactions cross-realms? IC-interactions means RP, it might also mean PvP, but with the emphasis on RP and it being an RP server it make ZERO sense to limit the IC-interaction possibilities cross-realm. In fact, its downright counter-productive to RP to have a rule that disallows travelling cross-realm, having a mechanic that removes a huge incentive for going cross-realm and mind you none of of the bad things that comes with going into the dangerous cross-realm have been removed, so for instance if you die, you could be losing a hefty amount of xp.

After the long discussion from a previous post, the DMs and others have implemented a rule to discourage UD chars from freely running around in the surface. Now, reasoning behind the rule is lore-wise, UD chars are not supposedly in the surface or so how I understood it.

Rumor has it that UD chars lately have been pvp baiting? Thus, what pushed to the implementation of the system.

Planehopper wrote:The upperdark was added as the neutral zone. It is Upperdark. Not Underdark, not surface. It is intended, or was, as the in-between, the meeting ground. It isn't the UD "giving up half". As Flasmix noted there are surface areas that are open, as well.

... no implementation will be perfect.

Planehopper wrote:The upperdark was added as the neutral zone. It is Upperdark. Not Underdark, not surface. It is intended, or was, as the in-between, the meeting ground. It isn't the UD "giving up half". As Flasmix noted there are surface areas that are open, as well.

Regardless, this rule only reinforces mechanically what was already there in the rules for a long time. An OOC rule that said grinding on the opposite side wasnt allowed. Does this pushback mean that there were people grinding previously? This changes nothing but the mechanics. The rules remain the same for now.

Lore-wise, especially server lore wise, the drow do not have settlements in this area. If that is the desire, work with DMs IC, and do it. No one is stopping an effort made, are they? Until a faction system is in place that can simulate NPC reactions, no implementation will be perfect.

Incarnate wrote:What surface areas are open? Because the rules specifically state it as the surface.

Incarnate wrote:I'm still going to question WHY an attempt to limit IC-interactions cross-realm is done?
Because it is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE to RP, and by enforcing mechanically a "no xp | no loot| cross-realm they're removing a PvE & OOC incentive to go there.

Personally, I'd recommend that as an RP-server, it would be be to focus on IC-interaction possibilities, IC-consequences, etc. If GRINDING is the problem, then fix that issue by setting spawn timers to ZERO when cross-realm characters are considered to be grinding.

Incarnate wrote:Settlements or no settlements, in forgotten realms it has never been that either are not allowed cross-realm, but yes by going cross-realm bad consequences happen very often.
But does that mean characters shouldn't be allowed to go there? Certainly not, everyone should be allowed to go where they want IC but be prepared for IC-consequences. Personally I've always allowed my players to go where they want but under this rule: With Freedom Comes Responsibility - which translates into IC-consequences.

IC-interactions means story progression, by limitting IC-interaction you're limitting story progression.

adobongmanok wrote: No one is barring from UD chars to go to surface. Just that you don't have anymore incentives to go up there, thus encouraging RP reasons to cross the border. But, the advocates of the mechanic changes don't see the part that it's actually doing the opposite by discouraging more people to play UD chars since UD is already small as it is which makes it unappealing to play.

– Surface/UD Travel!
-You can be on the other side, but have some roleplay reason to be there (not just an excuse to grind or PvP). races from the surface and the Underdark, respectively, are not permitted to live on the other side without DM approval. Expeditions to the other side have a clear set start and end period for a particular objective with the character returning to it's home setting after the period is over. Stating that you are there to defeat such and such creature, or to test your skill is not a valid RP reason, that is grinding. We also do not consider general exploration, or Drow raids on the surface as a valid RP reason, although such can be fodder for DM moderated events. Please PM the team regarding this.

Valid RP reasons outside of the above are defined widely and do not require prior DM approval. Examples include meeting another PC to trade, or to RP over religion, or to establish contacts with another guild. We would ask however that you are able to state your reasons when a DM asks and abide by any decision that is made. Please note that it is not valid to grind once the reasons for travelling to the surface or Underdark are complete. Stating that you are meeting a PC in Sshamath to acquire via trade rare and valuable items is a valid reason but grinding afterwards with your trading partner is still grinding. Both surface and Underdark races are permitted on Upperdark maps and full RP outs are required to initiate PvP (no KOS on Upperdark maps). If slain in PvP on the "other" side you may be issued a permastrike as a result.

We also ask that players are respectful of the setting given the leniency of these rules. On the surface NPCs should be regarded as universally hostile to Underdark PCs and so maps with NPCs should be avoided where possible without DM supervision. In the Underdark, the peculiarities of Sshamath's lore should be respected and the Underdark itself should be considered a dangerous and hostile place. While we wish to facilitate roleplay between surface and Underdark we do not want to erode the setting and so may intervene in RP that is immersion breaking.

Planehopper wrote:The upperdark was added as the neutral zone. It is Upperdark. Not Underdark, not surface. It is intended, or was, as the in-between, the meeting ground. It isn't the UD "giving up half". As Flasmix noted there are surface areas that are open, as well.

Regardless, this rule only reinforces mechanically what was already there in the rules for a long time. An OOC rule that said grinding on the opposite side wasnt allowed. Does this pushback mean that there were people grinding previously? This changes nothing but the mechanics. The rules remain the same for now.

Lore-wise, especially server lore wise, the drow do not have settlements in this area. If that is the desire, work with DMs IC, and do it. No one is stopping an effort made, are they? Until a faction system is in place that can simulate NPC reactions, no implementation will be perfect.

Incarnate wrote:

adobongmanok wrote: No one is barring from UD chars to go to surface. Just that you don't have anymore incentives to go up there, thus encouraging RP reasons to cross the border. But, the advocates of the mechanic changes don't see the part that it's actually doing the opposite by discouraging more people to play UD chars since UD is already small as it is which makes it unappealing to play.

That would be quite incorrect as per these rules:

– Surface/UD Travel!
-You can be on the other side, but have some roleplay reason to be there (not just an excuse to grind or PvP). races from the surface and the Underdark, respectively, are not permitted to live on the other side without DM approval. Expeditions to the other side have a clear set start and end period for a particular objective with the character returning to it's home setting after the period is over. Stating that you are there to defeat such and such creature, or to test your skill is not a valid RP reason, that is grinding. We also do not consider general exploration, or Drow raids on the surface as a valid RP reason, although such can be fodder for DM moderated events. Please PM the team regarding this.

Valid RP reasons outside of the above are defined widely and do not require prior DM approval. Examples include meeting another PC to trade, or to RP over religion, or to establish contacts with another guild. We would ask however that you are able to state your reasons when a DM asks and abide by any decision that is made. Please note that it is not valid to grind once the reasons for travelling to the surface or Underdark are complete. Stating that you are meeting a PC in Sshamath to acquire via trade rare and valuable items is a valid reason but grinding afterwards with your trading partner is still grinding. Both surface and Underdark races are permitted on Upperdark maps and full RP outs are required to initiate PvP (no KOS on Upperdark maps). If slain in PvP on the "other" side you may be issued a permastrike as a result.

We also ask that players are respectful of the setting given the leniency of these rules. On the surface NPCs should be regarded as universally hostile to Underdark PCs and so maps with NPCs should be avoided where possible without DM supervision. In the Underdark, the peculiarities of Sshamath's lore should be respected and the Underdark itself should be considered a dangerous and hostile place. While we wish to facilitate roleplay between surface and Underdark we do not want to erode the setting and so may intervene in RP that is immersion breaking.

adobongmanok wrote: Right. I usually proofread my post, but I made mistake on this one. Yes, you need RP reason to go to surface. So you may go to the surface, with just a RP reason to do so.

Incarnate wrote: These rules are quite restrictive and they do limit IC-interaction possibilities.

Say for Drow-X has never been to the Surface, so he wants to go explore the surface, but as per the OOC rules this player has to find a different valid RP-wise and lore-wise, but since his character Drow-X has never been to the surface, and knows no-one there then he has no IC-valid reason to go there.