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Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:22 pm
by aaron22
they are undead. this is good and bad. if played right it can be more good than bad. but that is in the ability of the player. not the strength of the summon.

just like everything else

what?
mrm3ntalist wrote:
aaron22 wrote:a temptation to join the darkside.
What is this? There is no intention to make any class/feat/spell more powerful in order to tempt players to play them. If something is more powerful than it should be, then most probably somewhere a mistake was made.
is there humor in your country?

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:47 pm
by chad878262
aaron22 wrote:is there humor in your country?
New York? :P :lol:

In all honesty ALL summons, undead included have become too powerful and could use a bit of toning back. Wizards were already the top tier and yet they received further powerups in the past year. They really need to be brought back a notch or two, at best in line with where they were before the changes to summons, necromancy, transmutation schools to give extra bonuses.

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:20 pm
by Incarnate
aaron22 wrote:
Incarnate wrote:
mrm3ntalist wrote:If animate dead is made more reliable, then the HD of the spawns should be lowered a bit.
Ok, could you make some examples on what would be appropriately balanced if its made more reliable?

Also please note, if its made more reliable with the use of items that has a gold cost, then that should also be taken into the equation, as per what I've suggested in the thread.
it doesnt.
they don't care.

the casting of AD could consist of taking all your gear and leaving you 1 HP and it would not matter. IDK why, but i have approached things like this a few times before and it doesnt matter.

your better off not including any debts because the result is the same.

just ask for the AD to give 1-4 summons instead of 0-4
I don't think you're getting what I'm actually suggesting with this.

Basically, that through an expense you can make it more efficient.
Also, the Stretchbone spell and Meerschaum-bone consumable would also become a quite important for necromancers.

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:27 pm
by aaron22
i do get what you are asking. In my experiences in dealing with similar propositions it is the end state that is all that is important. not the means at which it gets there.

it is probably an over all balance issue. the summon must be considered in in highest possible state and then compared with similar summons in their highest possible state. to gain equilibrium.

then compare those to the game itself and see if it puts the player at too far an advantage over the environment.

this is the only thing i could see as to why detractors are not observed when comparing the overall power level of the summon/spell/feat/class/race whatever.

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:22 pm
by Incarnate
chad878262 wrote: In all honesty ALL summons, undead included have become too powerful and could use a bit of toning back. Wizards were already the top tier and yet they received further powerups in the past year. They really need to be brought back a notch or two, at best in line with where they were before the changes to summons, necromancy, transmutation schools to give extra bonuses.
Though there is also the stigma that surrounds animating the dead, which can have some quite serious drawbacks and consequences, which means that their use suddenly becomes quite circumstancial around others. Which certainly also has to be taken into account, but I do agree from a gamebalance perspective, they need to be balanced, where ever that balance is. However with that said, the spell also needs to be reliable - having it be 0-4 makes it unreliable, and saying "well they're more powerful" doesn't really justify it being unreliable. Especially when considering the stigma around them.

Honestly, making what I'm suggesting - basically an expense to make them more reliable, which also can affect the roleplaying and trading regarding it, I think is a good solution.

Lets say, the Stretchbone spell was made - it would be a transmutation spell of level 1, at least if the bless water spell is used as a template it would be spell level 1. Though, I do believe the spell would be reasonable at that level. Then one use of this spell would create 1 meerschaum-bone, which would cost the wizard 115gps and a ONE 1st level spell slot in preperation, and FOUR 1st level spell slots and 460gps to create a +4 reliability casting of the AD spell. I'd say thats quite reasonable because it does mean that one has to put gold and effort towards getting the spell reliable.

Now, lets say that the Stretchbone spell isn't all that known by necromancers, but its known more widely known by necromancers that meerschaum-bones will make the AD spell more reliable, so obviously this would make these people interested in it - which means there will be a market for it.

Furthermore, if bone was made usable as well for casting to make it more reliable, then suddenly there would be a reason to be conducting more shovelling activities at graveyards = roleplay pontential.

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:10 am
by Invoker
Incarnate wrote: Though there is also the stigma that surrounds animating the dead, which can have some quite serious drawbacks and consequences, which means that their use suddenly becomes quite circumstancial around others.
Even the reaction of the "others" become quite circumstancial, especially when, for instance, my mage (which already is very dangerous without summons) walks around full of over CL 30 buffs and with 6 epic Undead in tow.

You don't really want to be too hasty deciding evil has to be crushed at all costs, and all that good jazz. Lest you join the army, and become a part of the aforementioned "evil".

It goes both ways.

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:36 am
by Incarnate
Invoker wrote:
Incarnate wrote: Though there is also the stigma that surrounds animating the dead, which can have some quite serious drawbacks and consequences, which means that their use suddenly becomes quite circumstancial around others.
Even the reaction of the "others" become quite circumstancial, especially when, for instance, my mage (which already is very dangerous without summons) walks around full of over CL 30 buffs and with 6 epic Undead in tow.

You don't really want to be too hasty deciding evil has to be crushed at all costs, and all that good jazz. Lest you join the army, and become a part of the aforementioned "evil".

It goes both ways.
Necromancers has more enemies than allies, so their undead has to make up for it!

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:43 am
by Invoker
Incarnate wrote: Necromancers has more enemies than allies, so their undead has to make up for it!
Are you sure about it :twisted: ?

If you know where to look, and do not get deceived by their masks, you can see a lot of darkfriends all around you. Even in "good" areas.

Don't give anything for granted...

Just like dressing in black does not mean "evil"...a white mantle and a facade do not mean "good", either.

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:48 am
by Incarnate
Invoker wrote:
Incarnate wrote: Necromancers has more enemies than allies, so their undead has to make up for it!
Are you sure about it :twisted: ?

If you know where to look, and do not get deceived by their masks, you can see a lot of darkfriends all around you. Even in "good" areas.

Don't give anything for granted...

Just like dressing in black does not mean "evil"...a white mantle and a facade do not mean "good", either.
Oh, I know that, but there are usually more good than evil, and even evil aligned characters might actually dispise necromancy - there is a lot of stigma regarding undead.

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:07 am
by Khazrak
Actually, I believe the most common alignment by far, according to statistics data shown before, was Chaotic Neutral.

And as everyone knows, Chaotic Neutral is the alignment you play when you wanna be evil but don't want prot. from evil to work on you.

:/

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:13 am
by Incarnate
Khazrak wrote:Actually, I believe the most common alignment by far, according to statistics data shown before, was Chaotic Neutral.

And as everyone knows, Chaotic Neutral is the alignment you play when you wanna be evil but don't want prot. from evil to work on you.

:/
Even if that is the most played alignment, there is still a lot of stigma regarding the use of undead, and even chaotic neutral can be against the use of undeads. Besides, people are quick to join the band-wagon as soon as someone says there is a necromancer, whether they're actually good alignment or not - because both necromancers and the use of undead has a lot stigma associated with them.

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:36 am
by Wolfrayne
Something to think about.

Origins of Undeath

Numerous theories exist concerning the nature of undeath, and though some hypothesis compete with or contradict one another, others reinforce or overlap each other. While these conjectures may not agree on the origins of unlife, most of them at least assert that this condition is generally visited upon the bodies of recently deceased creatures. Below are some of the more widely accepted theories about the origins of this affliction

Atrocity Calls to Unlife: Evil acts can resonate in multiple dimensions, opening cracks in reality and letting the blight creep in. A sufficiently heinous act may attract the attention of malicious spirits, bodiless and seeking to house themselves in flesh, especially recently vacated vessels. Such spirits are often little more than nodes of unquenchable hunger, wishing only to feed. These comprise many of the mindless undead. Sometimes these evil influences also manage to reinvigorate the decaying memories of the body's former host. Thus, some semblance of the original personality and memories remain, though the newly awakened being is invariably twisted by the inhabiting spirit, resulting in an evil, twisted, and intelligent creature. However, this being is not truly inhabited by the spirit of the original creature, which has left to seek its ultimate destiny in the Outer Planes. This amalgamation is something entirely new.

Other times, atrocious deeds call dark, reanimating spirits into the fleshy form of the newly deceased, leaving the original spirit intact. This might happen if the person was already evil, or was tempted to evil in life. Alternatively, some good spirits might be unnaturally trapped within their bodies, slowly being perverted to evil as the dark spirits convert the body to undead status.

Negative Energy as a Supportive Force: While atrocity may serve as a trigger for unlife, it is nor enough to bring about a transformation of this magnitude on its own. It requires the very energy that drives dark spirits and their unquenchable thirst for life. That which is dead has no vitality, so where does the energy of animation come from? Negative energy - a force that is marshaled, stored, and utilized mostly by evil creatures, malign deities, and their servants - provides the power for this metamorphosis. Just as blood suffuses living creatures, negative energy suffuses undead, providing them all their abilities, from mobility to sentience, from flesh-eating to soul-devouring.

Negative Energy as a Draining Force: Some claim that undead exist concurrently on the Material Plane and the Negative Energy Plane. More precisely, they believe that undead on the Material Plane are linked to the Negative Energy Plane via a conduit, just as life itself somehow partakes of positive energy.

The Negative Energy Plane is the heart of darkness - the hunger that devours souls. It is a barren, empty place, a void without end, and a place of vacant, suffocating night. Worse, it is a needy, greedy plane, sucking the life out of anything vulnerable to its grasp. Heat, fire, and life itself are all drawn into the maw of this plane, which perpetually hungers for more.

The very existence of even the weakest undead produces a constant drain on the energies of the Material Plane, which accounts for sensations of cold often attributed to the unliving. As part of the enchantment of their creation, undead "siphon" a bit of the energy flowing from the Material Plane toward the Negative Energy Plane. This "stolen" energy serves to power their ongoing existence.

More powerful undead have a stronger connection to the Negative Energy Plane and are therefore able to siphon even more Material Plane energy for their own purposes before it is forever lost in the Final Void. This type of animation is known as necromancy, but it could also be called entropic animancy. Wizards speculate that magic might be able to link objects or corpses to the Positive Energy Plane, in this case reversing the flow of energy.

Undeath as Contagion: Many undead have methods of propagating their curse among their previously living victims. For instance, those infected by the diseased bite of a ghoul may contract ghoul fever. Those who perish from this rotting illness rise at the next midnight as ghouls themselves. In this way, some undead recruit the formerly living into their shuffling ranks.

Undead propagate in a sick parody of life's method of multiplying. Worse yet, undead proliferation is far quicker, easier, and doesn't require the consent of the creature to be made undead - only a victim's inability to drive off the grave-born attacker.

Purposeful Reanimation: Count on the knowledge-seekers to pursue too far the spark of life, and the dark fruits of death. Some seek death's secrets out of fear, thinking that by overcoming mortality, they will have no more to dread. Mages who tread this road to its conclusion sometimes embrace death completely, though they do not become immortal but simply enduring. Spellcasters who adopt this existence are commonly known as liches. To their sorrow, most find that forsaking all the pleasures of life while continuing to exist is a fate worse than the absolution of true death. Others probe the boundaries between one's last breath and the final silence solely for the sake of knowledge. Shorn of conscience or any passion other than the need to know the truth, these dabblers have been responsible for plagues of zombies, soul-snuffing winds, and other atrocities.

Sometimes these learned mages also experiment with animation of inert matter that shares many properties with the animation of undead, especially when the inert matter in question is composed of the cast-off body parts of once-living creatures. Such creations are commonly known as flesh golems. However, as similar as a flesh golem (or any other construct) may appear to a zombie, constructs and undead remain separate entities, for two main reasons. First, negative energy is not a requisite power for any common construct, including flesh golems. Negative energy does not energize constructs, nor does negative energy play a part in the methods whereby constructs can afflict foes. Second, constructs are not animated by evil spirits, but rather by elemental spirits. By some people's estimation, this similarity is too close for comfort, but most feel that the difference is great enough to warrant a clear separation of type.

Interesting Read if you really want to get in to undead
http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/aboutundead.shtml

Regardless when you look at it Undead in Forgotten Realms are animated by Negative Force which is evil. No matter the intention of the person creating undead it is still an evil act.

(Edit) In regards to the Term necromancer it annoys me that people automaticly assume they are evil. The school itself does have a stigma to it but just because someone is focused on necromancy doesnt mean they go around animating the dead and such however it would be safe to assume they use spells that are powered by evil force.

(although if i remember correctly most healing spells were necromancy back in the older editions, later becoming conjuration)

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:56 pm
by Incarnate
Wolfrayne wrote:Something to think about.
Origins of Undeath.......
Great post - a lot of valuable information there, you should definitely repost this as a seperate post.
Wolfrayne wrote:Regardless when you look at it Undead in Forgotten Realms are animated by Negative Force which is evil. No matter the intention of the person creating undead it is still an evil act.
Exactly - the stigma.
Wolfrayne wrote:(Edit) In regards to the Term necromancer it annoys me that people automaticly assume they are evil. The school itself does have a stigma to it but just because someone is focused on necromancy doesnt mean they go around animating the dead and such however it would be safe to assume they use spells that are powered by evil force.

(although if i remember correctly most healing spells were necromancy back in the older editions, later becoming conjuration)
Yes, there is White Necromancy - good aligned necromancy.
Then there is Black Necromancy - evil aligned necromancy.
Necromancy in it self is the study of life & death not just death, and is about manipulating the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school.

You remember it correctly, in earlier/older editions healing spells are necromancy, and since they're tied to a school they are also possible to be learned, at least in the PnP version it is - with DM approval.

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:23 pm
by aaron22
in all fairness, stigma associated to anything doesn't get any benefits in regards to the mechanical aspect here. in PnP anything is at the discretion of the DM, so that both applies and doesnt apply depending upon how you want to look at it. The admin are our DM's rule book in a way. i think you see my point.

if this were applied than races such as, but not limited to, orcs and duergar would get a bonus as they carry a stigma in both the UD and the surface. neither do. that is fine.

and why not you may ask. well i guess it is because the server's attitude about aspects like this are variable and one day something can be unacceptable and the next, acceptable. would you then want the server to apply a nerf/buff depending upon the feeling of a volatile community?

just an argument and this is no way "comes from the horses mouth". just observation and consideration.

Re: Suggestion: Add options to ensure successful casting AD/

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:31 pm
by Incarnate
aaron22 wrote:in all fairness, stigma associated to anything doesn't get any benefits in regards to the mechanical aspect here. in PnP anything is at the discretion of the DM, so that both applies and doesnt apply depending upon how you want to look at it. The admin are our DM's rule book in a way. i think you see my point.

if this were applied than races such as, but not limited to, orcs and duergar would get a bonus as they carry a stigma in both the UD and the surface. neither do. that is fine.

and why not you may ask. well i guess it is because the server's attitude about aspects like this are variable and one day something can be unacceptable and the next, acceptable. would you then want the server to apply a nerf/buff depending upon the feeling of a volatile community?

just an argument and this is no way "comes from the horses mouth". just observation and consideration.
I do get what you're saying, and the spell and their balance should be made from a neutral stand point. Since potentially a maximum of FOUR can be animated its only reasonable that IF less are animated then the amount of HD's that isn't used gets spread out among the others that gets animated.

It would make sense to make it something like how the original Animate Dead handles it:

"Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)

No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit."


Since the HD of the type of undead that gets animated remains static it works fine in PnP with the controlling the amount that can be animated, while here it would make sense to have the HD's that can be created be spread out among those that are animated. Obviously the amount HD's created would have to be lowered to something like #HD's = CL.

If the spell isn't changed with regards to how the HD's a distributed when less are animated, then this raises this question - how does Empower and Maximize spell work with animate dead specifically here on the server. Because Empower spell multiplies any numerical value by 1.5 and maximize would any potential variables.