Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Steve wrote:Is it mechanically possible to limit the gold in-game?

Yeah, in nexus, you could have some script on Mystra that removes gold if it is above certrain threshold.

Valefort wrote:Epic shops, a lose lose situation, making the barter system even slower to give you interesting items compared to what you can buy and making the so-called "pseudo" reason to play that looting is effectively less appealing. A terrible idea whose consequences we endure now because lo and behold content doesn't sprout on trees and won't ever do.

I am not sure if I follow you here, at all.

Epic shop items tend to cost 300,000 gp on avarage. That is a lot of time spent on looting and especially so if you pay that for each invetory slot. I do not think it is that bad if you are also leveling up your character in the process of doing it.

Now, if you look at the epic store items, then you might spot that many of them also have useless attributes that generally just raise in game the price of the items. Therefore there is a market for player found items, which could do the same cheaper thing or be functionally superior. You can make a build based on items found in the epic stores, or you can choose not to do it.

For example, I found a querterstaff with +1 Acid, +1 Cold, +1 Electric damage, and something little else on it. To me it is the hands on best item I have found on this server, and it made me RCR just so that I could add +1 damage to it. Most of the 'actual epic items' I have found are actually sitting vacant on those 'veteran merchant' trade lists, since I tend to leave trails of loot running accross the server when I grow fed up... Or just sell it to NPC merchants... Or put it up on the in game consingment store at bargain price.

Valefort wrote:Shorten the time to get near perfect mechanical growth and things get stale faster from that point of view. It also didn't solve the value of gold issue, as it will be more and more apparent the more people buy from the epic shops since muling across characters is prevalent. Oh and PvM became even easier than it was because of higher availability of epic gear, what a good idea all around.

Not everyone dedicates themselves to a singular character. And sure, I might mule things over when I RCR an old character into something new... But outside of that case, each of my characters need their own set of equipment. If I play on X, I do not want to waste time muling items from Y and Z, and then mule items back to Y and Z when I play those characters.

You need a lot of gold to buy things from the in game epic merchants. Roll a new character or two, if not a handful. I got a bunch of charatcers with '+3' equipment. Only two of my current characters kind of have that 'perfect' set of '+4' equipment. Therefore, to me, in game gold has a real value.

The gold value problem is a problem only to those players with too few characters.



Edit: What makes the game stale is the fact that epic areas are not in a singular line... but rather thrown about across the server.

@invoker Several points, as you noted the "need" to loot is between quotations as in fact epic gear is not needed for PvE. The multiple epic shops that were inflicted on the server were pointless in that regard, what they achieved was more gear optimisation and standardisation. The looters will continue looting but the reward is now much inferior, relatively speaking, or even outright non existent for many items. That's a net loss to try and solve a jealousy issue that persiste nonetheless : a failure.

The value of gold is a problem without solution, adding expensive crafting will only make things worse unless we create a whole range of consumables that benefit everyone. A bad idea as it would add a needless step and would give more mechanical power to PCs, vanity items and features would work but not everyone is after the la test helmet signed by athorn.

The last point is true to an extent, which is simply time, as epic shops increased availability more than power.

But...if Coin became or could become as rare as loot/epic items/whatever, then...wouldn't it have the same value as what Player's with unique Items only want, which is other unique items?

The idea is that if unique/epic Items are finite, and gold is finite, then getting/keeping/using Coin is just as valuable as anything else.

Steve wrote:But...if Coin became or could become as rare as loot/epic items/whatever, then...wouldn't it have the same value as what Player's with unique Items only want, which is other unique items?

The idea is that if unique/epic Items are finite, and gold is finite, then getting/keeping/using Coin is just as valuable as anything else.

This doesn't really work when existing/long time players already have hundreds of thousands/millions/tens of millions in gold...Just further creates a separation of those that have vs. those that can never get, which would be bad, IMO.

Were you to limit the amount of gold in game... Well... It would require a brand new NPC-Player bartering system. One where you can actually trade multiple items for a singular item in one go.

For example a player could put a stack of some +1 equipment and trade it for one NPC item. Or perhaps put in one expensive item and get several NPC items back in one go. Currently we have to buy things one by one, and sell things one by one. Thus by default, this current system requires playes to have a lot of gold to get anything from NPC merchants.

Thus, if it were possible to select the items you wish to offer for trade and select the ones you want in return... It would actually make sense to implement copper pieces, silver pieces, gold pieces, electrum pieces, and platinum pieces. These coins would need to have large maximum stacks size to decrease the need to mule them for storage.

Additionally, you would also need to have some system for haggling with NPC merchants... Something like in Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

Yes, Chad, I agree with you. But...

Gold Coin reset. Or, there is a down-conversion. For every 1k coin currently in Inventory, your toon receive 1 coin.

The, a max cap on coins is created on the Server, and Coin drop is adjusted, and prices are adjusted, etc.

The point is: any economy where the monetary exchange object is infinitely acquirable, and what you can buy with it is infinitely acquirable, results in a system where things that are not infinitely acquirable have out-of-economy value. Thus, currently on BGTSCC, Players do not have to sell unique Items, because they 1) don't need Coins (they have all they want and the supply is infinite) and 2) they don't have to spend coin for any reason (there are not taxes, no rent, no food costs, etc.).

Let's say the most valuable thing on BGTSCC is an Item that is unique. Meaning: can't loot drop 99.9% of the time. Thus either a very special RIG item or a DM reward. Well, it is obvious that because PCs don't actually need Coin to "live," and Coin is literally falling from the sky, Coin will never compete with an object that cannot be gained by Coin itself.

Coin would have to gain a value similar to unique items—this is why in the Real World people can buy art for billions, because billions of dollars is needed to survive, i.e., the unique thing is worth a trade of things that allow you to survive (or get other unique things...see where I'm going here?).

Essentially, say each PC needed 100 gp per IG day to survive on BGTSCC. If you didn't have 100gp, your Toon would die. Literally, die. Poof. Dead. No Myrkul, only maybe Resurrection.

That would kinda motivate people to have lots of Coin , yes? Now, add to this idea that there would only be 5 million coins TOTAL on BGTSCC (as well, that current coin amounts in Inventories are reduced 1,000-to-1). Hmm...how would THAT flip the script, right?!?

Steve wrote:Essentially, say each PC needed 100 gp per IG day to survive on BGTSCC. If you didn't have 100gp, your Toon would die. Literally, die. Poof. Dead. No Myrkul, only maybe Resurrection.

It is just a bad idea... You do realise that with your suggestion, a level one player would have to grind 100,000 gp worth of gold not to be permakilled by your system. Not all veterans players sit on dragon hoards either.

I'm just saying that because Coin is absolutely NOT NECESSARY to survive as a Character, for all the reasons that I know you know that I know you know that you know, it's value is related to what it can buy, and if there is no need to buy anything to play the game, and it has no value to acquire things that are unique (because again, it has no value), then Coin is actually worthless (or, it gets rather worthless in a very, very short time).

If coin was to be made necessary on BGTSCC, as it absolutely is in D&D, to the survival of our Characters, and, more or less like $$$ is necessary in RL (though I'm not here to really debate on this), it would constantly have value, from the stage of 2 coins in your pocket, to what kind of treasury the Dukes are sitting on.

Really though, we don't have to go that far into it. The issue is now, as it always has been: unique Items that exist in Game are such that only other unique items equal their value, and thus...unless you as a Player acquire another unique Item, you will not gain unique items. Even Karond's comic states this clearly, as he was lucky to essentially have a 500k fund from a lucky find early on, and then turn that into his advantage, which he expertly then saw how to move unique items between Players through facilitating trade, and gain a personal profit from it.

Its not rocket science. All a Player needs is 1 unique epic item, and they can become an AC81 (who everyone equally despises for his Dragon Hoard of awesome gear! Love ya AC!!! *hugs*

So really, maybe what is wrong is the terminology here. Coin is worthless, it is actually irrelevant, if you are looking to acquire Items NOT available at an NPC merchant. At least, in most cases...unless a Player WILLFULLY decides the want Coin, which is usually very rare.

Steve wrote:Its not rocket science. All a Player needs is 1 unique epic item, and they can become an AC81 (who everyone equally despises for his Dragon Hoard of awesome gear! Love ya AC!!! *hugs*

Wrong... Most of the stuff on his list comes from the in game consignment store. Found by me, put there with a price tag of 20-50k. I mean, when I put something 'decent' in the in game consingment store... I tends to end up in his list.

Sun Wukong wrote:

Steve wrote:Its not rocket science. All a Player needs is 1 unique epic item, and they can become an AC81 (who everyone equally despises for his Dragon Hoard of awesome gear! Love ya AC!!! *hugs*

Wrong... Most of the stuff on his list comes from the in game consignment store. Found by me, put there with a price tag of 20-50k. I mean, when I put something 'decent' in the in game consingment store... I tends to end up in his list.

Well...this thread isn't about the idiocy of Monkeys, now is it?!?

One man's idiocy is another man's time saved by not having to herd cats.

Sun Wukong wrote:One man's idiocy is another man's time saved by not having to herd cats.

Can't argue with you there!

Sun Wukong wrote:

Steve wrote:Its not rocket science. All a Player needs is 1 unique epic item, and they can become an AC81 (who everyone equally despises for his Dragon Hoard of awesome gear! Love ya AC!!! *hugs*

Wrong... Most of the stuff on his list comes from the in game consignment store. Found by me, put there with a price tag of 20-50k. I mean, when I put something 'decent' in the in game consingment store... I tends to end up in his list.

Please explain. Exactly which items are from the IG consignment store? Also, hi Steve, how's that epic viper going?

Lovin' it, mate! Cheers!

Some players are just really good at what they do. AC81 has the trader biz cornered, and good for him. And if, for example, your PC could muster up an Item of Epic, unique value, then you too could sit at the Big Boys table. lol. That's how things are.

Or, you could just ignore all that, whether you have what someone doesn't, and just RP, and maybe if you're lucky, a DM will also reward you.

REWARDS! You love em, I love em, we ALL LOVE THEM!

Now...go out and get ya some cookies.

Sun Wukong wrote:

niapet wrote:I was thinking about a post where it was mentioned that players often won't sell epic items for gold, and I was wondering why this might be. Then it occurred to me; gold doesn't really buy much.

If you play on any server long enough, you will get enough game currency to acquire the best equipment that money can buy. But that is not necessarily the best equipment that you could possibly have. For example, this server has some old DM rewards floating around, and this server has the potential to randomly generate some truly wondrous item.

Now, people play with different character builds with different item requirements. Not to mention that even if you get your hands on epic items X, Y, and Z, those items might not be of any use to your own character. You might long for that item B, but you might never find it yourself. But if another player does and they actually could make more use of one or two of the X, Y, Z items you have, then it is very easy to do a trade. This is why some 'epic veteran merchants' have such long epic item lists, they are just trying to fish for the one trade they really want to make. If you see something you want, it never hurts to send a PM and ask what kind of items they would like to get in return. Who knows what you will find from the next chest.

As for uses of gold...

You can always create a new character that needs its own set of equipment. You can always choose to burn it on useables. You may fuel your favourite guild with your wealth or start one of your own. Not to mention that you can just keep saving it for that one moment... And who knows, maybe some epic item will eventually pop up for gold based auction, because someone always has use for gold, one way or another.

This does not explain why gold wont buy better equipment though. IRL one could be rich enough to buy the best everything but still uses money to buy rare things. Money is a medium to use fore exchange of goods.

The reason gold inst being accepted to trade good must be deeper than "I can already buy t he best stuff" If the best stuff costs 500kl why not sell something 10x better for 50 million? Gold should still have some sort of value.. The question is how to give it that value.

I think it might be because there is nothing else to do with so much gold. Thus if there were always something one could do with gold, gold might be accepted as a currency. Paper money is only accepted as valuable because we say it is.

Perhaps if there was some sort of trade items.. like a "gold sovereign" coin that cost 10k gold each. maybe these are hard to get because they are at the end of grueling epic areas and you have to trade gold for them. IDK could those become valued as real currency? Maybe if they could be used for full RCRs?

What if full RcRs costed 100 gold sovereigns? That would mean a full rebuild would cost 1 million gold. People would do it, if they had the gold, this gold might be valuable.

Anyway I really like the idea of gold having value in some way because it makes trading much easier. If people can sell their items they dont want for gold it makes it much easier to then acquire other rare epic items later. Waiting for two people with rare piece items that actually want to trade to meet up is terrible.. this is why we invented currency in the first place.

Oh we should also drop some amount of gold on death. I've seen bandit PCs and always choose to fight.. If I lost id give them gold but I doubt most people would. I think bandit should be a legit career, even if ill never play a bandit.