ARHicks00 wrote:1. Thankful, unlike yourself, I have tested and did cotrect math. My math did not include the practiced spellcaster glitch or Kaedrin upgrades. The highest DC is 44 unless Mage or Wizard using a tieflng, aasimar, or drow.
Build:
Human "Cleric 10/Hospitaler 10/Hierophant 10"
Wisdom:
17 (Starting wisdom)
+ 7 (Ability Increases on level up)
+ 4 (Great Wisdom feats from regular epic feats)
+ 2 (Great Wisdo feat from Hospitaler bonus feats)
+ 4 (Owl's Wisdom spell, or +4 item)
= 34
Evocation Spell DC:
10 (Base)
+ 1 (Spellcasting Prodigy)
+ 12 (Wisdom of 34)
+ 4 (Epic caster level from base caster level of 33)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus)
+ 12 (Implosion)
= 42
You can throw 'Advanced Divine Spell Power' in there, which based on the roll result can easily increase the DC by +1 or +2.
Now, you could also go for following
build:
Human Cleric 17/Blackguard 3/Hierophant 10
Wisdom:
17 (Starting wisdom)
+ 7 (Ability Increases on level up)
+ 4 (Great Wisdom feats from regular epic feats)
+ 4 (Owl's Wisdom spell, or +4 item)
= 32
Evocation Spell DC:
10 (Base)
+ 1 (Spellcasting Prodigy)
+ 11 (Wisdom of 32)
+ 4 (Epic caster level from base caster level of 33)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus)
+ 12 (Implosion)
+ 2 (The -2 save penalty from Blackguard Aura)
= 43
And as above, you can throw 'Advanced Divine Spell Power' in there, which based on the roll result can easily increase the DC by +1 or +2.
The above is all based on what you can get on this server.
ARHicks00 wrote:2. In the same article, i noted the average spellcaster has a DC in the 30s. I go into detail that the AVERAGE spellcaster DOES not specialize in one school.
The average spellcaster on this server goes to the Tips and Tricks subforum, Character Builds subforum in particular, and they ask for build advice. With caster clerics, they will be adviced to focus on either Evocation for the large and varied spell selection, Necromancy for Harm and the Save or Die spells, or Conjuration for summons and Storm of Vengeance. (Maybe Enchantment if they want to go for the Tyranny Domain.) Following the given build advice will result in high DC builds.
As for spellcasters that do not focus on DCs, they tend to be 'gishes' of one breed or another. They do not need spell DCs, because they are buffed up warriors instead of spell-flinging-spellcasters.
Therefore, the approach of an 'AVARAGE spellcaster' is entirely incorrect. What you need to focus on instead is the 'MEDIAN DC based spellcaster' - if you wish to have an accurate Fortitude/Reflex/Will save benchmark to work towards.
ARHicks00 wrote:3. As you see with that build and DooDooKnight 1. You can easily get saves in the 20s. You can get up to +9 worth if saving equipment and 4/+2 from attributes bonus for 30ish saves. That is not including the 30/+6 spellcraft bouns towards saves. That would put that build saves at mid 30s to late 30s. (37 being the highest) Even if you had 45 DC, I would have to roll a 7 or lower to get the full effect of any spell.
Clerics have access to spell called Energy Drain. It inflicts level drain, which lowers your saves and AB. The build you linked previously does not get +6 spellcraft bonus against spells, it only gets +3 from cross-classed Spellcraft skill. Therefore, before the effect of the Energy Drain is even factored in, a roll of 10 or lower means the cleric's spell does its full effect.
And once again, let us not forget that there are spells where the DC is largely cosmetic. An example would be the previously mentioned Harm spells that deal 150 or 300 damage a cast with Hierophant's Blast Infidel ability. There are spells that have no save, such as the previously mentioned Energy Drain.
ARHicks00 wrote:4. I noted in the saves article back in the early days the "safe zone" for saves for all melee builds is 20. If you read the explanation above you will know why.
People have made DC builds from day one of this server. Did you know that Favored Soul used to be considered as a horribly weak class on this server? It was largely because it did not make a great DC builds due to the split between charisma for spells and wisdom for DCs. It took some time until people discovered its melee 'gish' potential. Melee gishes rarely if ever throw DC spells.
ARHicks00 wrote:5. Average Cleric is 20ish or lower strength. Bull's strength gives 4/+2. Divine gives.you +5 to BAB while their total AB output is barely in the 50s. (30+7+5+3+1+1+2 for 49 AB not counting feats) A Battle cleric can get +50 and caster 45ish. A fighter/weapon master build can get 40AB to 49 AB easy And that is not including buffs or items.
DC Cleric AB:
30 (BAB, Divine Power)
+ 5 (Base 14 strength buffed up to 20 with Divine Power)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
+ 3 (Divine Favor)
+ 1 (Bless Weapon, long duration)
+ 1 (Aid, long duration)
= 45
You get more AB if you want, but the above selection does not hamper your DC based spell book.
The Weapon Master build you linked previously can get undispellable AB of 51 with +4 weapon. It would go down to 45 if the build had IPA to increase your damage output to push through caster DR. I suppose you could use some item to get access to Power Attack at least. I would not even consider it worthy to factor in how Divine Wrath could give your build +3 AB/damage for about 5 rounds~.
Your build cannot score critical hits due to immunity, and it can barely push through the DR, and the saves of it could be far higher.
It is an interesting role-play build, I give you that.
But if a melee build wants to go toe-to-toe against a caster, the most important thing to consider is the non-critical hit damage dealt on hit. That is one of the few things that can actually stop a caster from casting their spells. The Concentration skill check is:
10 + (Damage taken) + (Spell's default spell level).
ARHicks00 wrote:Like I said, people exaggerate abut these classes. To put it simpme the person with a good weapon master build has high saves and 50ish AB wothout buffs.
Weapon Master is a horrible class, it requires a ton of feats and only provides +1 AB against critical hit immunity. That is not say it doesn't work against PvE on this server... There are a lot of creatures, mobs, and bosses without critical hit immunity.
But PvE is not the same thing as PvP against spellcasters.
