Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Yes warlocks are strong, though tier 1 is debatable. But balance is not just about one class compared to another, it's also about choices within a class. There are too many weak invocations, too many invocations that an experienced warlock player would never pick. This leads to every warlock running around with like 80% the same invocation selection, which is dull.

Word of changing is one of these bad choices. Both your damage and your defenses are better of without it, even though it's a dark invocation. This should be fixed just as the shapechange spell was fixed. Allowing more shapes would allow more RP possibilities. Merging items is a given since mages/druids/shamans already get that, atop of their wider array of buffs. Guttural invocation would be too strong, but a nerfed version of hideous blow in-form might work.

Nemni wrote:Yes warlocks are strong, though tier 1 is debatable.

It's been debated. But it has never been debatable.

Endless Chain Noxious Blasts (every 3, satistically, epic enemies are disabled for 10 rounds. Meaning, they're dead), AC 50+, permanent DR 7 (or 10 with spammable Invocation), permanent 50% concealment, hundreds of damage delivered with RTA, decent HP and full UMD access mean Tier 1.

Warlocks kill slightly slower than Favored Souls and Bards, but never need to rest, nor spend 5 minutes buffing, and can still solo everything that can be soloed on the server with little effort. Druids are even more resilient, but kill slower. It's a particularly fitting comparison, because Druids have little build variety at Tier 1, just like Warlocks.

I can't even say "if you play them correctly", because it doesn't take too much concentration.

But balance is not just about one class compared to another, it's also about choices within a class.

Not really. Variety has nothing to do with balance, and when considering additional options, server policy has always been to keep them in line with currently available options. So, by definition, a new addition can never be clearly more powerful than what's already available. Guttural Invocations and Eldritch Glaive would become instantly "must-picks".

Some options will always be less powerful. Even for immensely powerful classes (caster FS, Druid w/o Dragon form, caster Bard...).

There are too many weak invocations, too many invocations that an experienced warlock player would never pick. This leads to every warlock running around with like 80% the same invocation selection, which is dull.

That is true, but provided you pick Retributive Invisibility, Eldritch Chain, Noxious and Vitriolic Blast, and mind your unbuffed AC (Armored Caster, MFP and ICE) and your blast dice (Eldritch Master, especially) you remain Tier 1.

Word of changing is one of these bad choices. Both your damage and your defenses are better of without it, even though it's a dark invocation. This should be fixed just as the shapechange spell was fixed. Allowing more shapes would allow more RP possibilities. Merging items is a given since mages/druids/shamans already get that, atop of their wider array of buffs. Guttural invocation would be too strong, but a nerfed version of hideous blow in-form might work.

I don't see a problem with that, provided you can never cast in shape. No, not even Hideous Blow. If you want to play in shape, build for it with feats.

It's been debated. But it has never been debatable.

These sort of pronouncements aren't particularly helpful in a discussion.

Druids are even more resilient, but kill slower. It's a particularly fitting comparison, because Druids have little build variety at Tier 1, just like Warlocks.

Yes it's a good comparison and I've long argued that the game would be improved if druids had better build variety.

Variety has nothing to do with balance

One ability is weak, another is strong. Just because it's two abilities for the same class does not change that it's a balance issue. But call it variety if you prefer, it would still make the game better to improve upon it.

And yes the goal is certainly not to make word of changing the best pick option. Just a viable choice.

Nemni wrote:

It's been debated. But it has never been debatable.

These sort of pronouncements aren't particularly helpful in a discussion.

In fact, everything that followed was.

While your "it's debatable"...wasn't particularly helpful in the discussion.

Druids are even more resilient, but kill slower. It's a particularly fitting comparison, because Druids have little build variety at Tier 1, just like Warlocks.

Yes it's a good comparison and I've long argued that the game would be improved if druids had better build variety.

Oh yes, don't get me wrong: I didn't challenge the statement. I merely disagree on variety being a balance-related subject, on grounds of the "alternatives will never be as good as the top option" rule (anti-power-creep, of course).

Variety has nothing to do with balance

One ability is weak, another is strong. Just because it's two abilities for the same class does not change that it's a balance issue. But call it variety if you prefer, it would still make the game better to improve upon it.

And yes the goal is certainly not to make word of changing the best pick option. Just a viable choice.

By the very description you provide, it does. "Balance issue" can never encompass variety, because everyone can build inferior characters for RP reasons, willingly. Making inferior options slightly better has more to do with QoL than balance, since whether they change or not has zero impact on the overall game balance.

I really couldn't care less about what's being done with Word of Changing, as I stated before in no uncertain terms. I said Guttural Invocations is overpowered. Just that. Incidentally, you stated the same.

Unfortunately it is very difficult to make adjustments that offer variety without introducing power creep. Who could argue the changes to Necromancy, Conjuration, and Transmutation haven't made Wizards even more powerful than they already were?

chad878262 wrote:Unfortunately it is very difficult to make adjustments that offer variety without introducing power creep. Who could argue the changes to Necromancy, Conjuration, and Transmutation haven't made Wizards even more powerful than they already were?

I agree with you.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, the changes to Shapechange and Summoning, as well as the bonuses provided by the SF feats, introduced imbalances difficult to justify (arcane casters are already very strong, and needed no help).

That's a big difference with Guttural Invocations, though. In the above case, you simply need to tweak the summons' numbers and possibly remove the SF privileges. The system itself (more contemporary summon slots & more creatures available) constitutes a fun playstyle introduced in the game, that previously was not available. The proposed change, allowing casting in form for Warlocks, is instead conceptually wrong from a power creep perspective. Much better idea to simply tweak the Cornugon itself, instead (and/or eventual other creature options).

I wouldn't mind giving Word of Changing some more options, but probably nothing will be done with it for the foreseeable future because our devs that worked on the new system went on vacation.

I have other projects myself atm, so this basically boils down to one of those "once someone becomes interested and has time to make a revamp" things.

Nemni wrote:But balance is not just about one class compared to another

Actually, that's entirely what balance is...

If we're speaking in reference to the D&D 3.5 tier system, the whole point of that system was to be able to handle any given situations. Tier 1 classes could handle more situations than tier 2, than tier 3, etc. The balance on our server shows that warlocks are, for our server, tier 1.

Endelyon wrote:I wouldn't mind giving Word of Changing some more options, but probably nothing will be done with it for the foreseeable future because our devs that worked on the new system went on vacation.

I have other projects myself atm, so this basically boils down to one of those "once someone becomes interested and has time to make a revamp" things.

That's fair.

samb123 wrote:

Nemni wrote:But balance is not just about one class compared to another

Actually, that's entirely what balance is...

So if the new summon system had 10 choices and 1 of them was useful in strength and the others were useless, that would be balanced to you?
Think of balance how you like, I will think of it in wider terms.

Invoker wrote:"Balance issue" can never encompass variety, because everyone can build inferior characters for RP reasons, willingly.

Many players prefer the more powerful option, so clearly balancing the options would lead to greater variety in gameplay. That doesn't mean you have to take the argument to the extreme and start to balance every single build. It just means that things can be made better than they are so that not (almost) everyone uses the same trick.

Nemni wrote:So if the new summon system had 10 choices and 1 of them was useful in strength and the others were useless, that would be balanced to you?
Think of balance how you like, I will think of it in wider terms.

But instead the new summon system offered multitude of options, many of which are stronger than what was available prior to the new system. The issue is an already tier 1 group of builds becomes more powerful. Wider terms should really be considering wider impacts, for example allowing use of invocations while using word of changing would be a HUGE mistake as now you have a stronger form that can also have permanent displacement, DR, hideous blow, etc... Not to mention using a form that has higher base DEX to increase your RTA (not that it's needed). Warlock is already a tier 1 class, so such a change is a bad idea. Better to make the form ok without allowing stacking powerful invocations on top of it.

Making any change to already strong classes should be done with a much greater sense of caution because it always ends up with the 'rich getting richer' by these 'choices' becoming power increases.

Yes it's true that there's a risk of power creep. But the alternative to improving bad choices is to nerf the good ones or just let everything remain stale and less interesting than it could be. This particular ability is extra relevant as a very similar ability (shapechange) did get overhauled. Caution sure, but not so much that nothing gets done (when there's someone willing to work on it again).

chad878262 wrote:...the new summon system offered multitude of options, many of which are stronger than what was available prior to the new system. The issue is an already tier 1 group of builds becomes more powerful.

...

Warlock is already a tier 1 class, so such a change is a bad idea.

So....essentially a mistake was done with upgrading the Polymorphing and Summoning systems?!?

I'm not blaming anyone or Chad on this, because man o man do I enjoy these systems and think they are a great addition!

But if the floating argument here is that a Tier 1 class—casters—was made MORE powerful, and yet that argument is being used against making Warlocks MORE powerful, then...wouldn't the real action here be to make Polymorphing and Summoning LESS powerful, than it has been installed?

Say whatever you want, but the MAJORITY of Players are going to choose Tier 1 builds and additionally Min/MAX them to the Nth degree, because the general consensus is FUN is MAXIMIZED when you can steam roll PvE and also PvP on BGTSCC.

The most important thing here is what Endelyon said: until a Dev is willing, the whole discussion is moot (unfortunately).

*goes back to playing his pawning spirit shaman Shapechanger*

Nerfs.

Steve, you take what chad said out of context then simplify it. Nachti did a very good ( and a lot of ) work on the polymorph system and had to endure the nerf this, nerf that from the QC. Yes, the polymorph definitely got more variety which we can all agree it is good. It also got more powerful for those that invest on it - mostly feats. However some of the past polymorph mechanics have been nerfed - mostly whatever combo resulted into too much AC. The current result is a good all around spell, better for those that invest in it. Thank you NAchti. There is nothing to worry about it and nothing that should change because of warlocks.

As far as warlocks are concerned, Guttural Invocations has been discussed in the past and of course turned down. I dont think this will change, however like endelyon already mentioned, there would be no issue with adding more forms if a developer is interested into doing this. Warlocks have been reworked on BG by the masters of the class Knightmare, Molag_bal and Zlaayer. And yes, they are a "tier1" class with much variety. More than lets the monk or the paladin or the ranger class, whether ones decides to go pure, or with a small dip or multiclass heavily.

Valefort wrote:Nerfs.

Nemni wrote:

samb123 wrote:

Nemni wrote:But balance is not just about one class compared to another

Actually, that's entirely what balance is...

So if the new summon system had 10 choices and 1 of them was useful in strength and the others were useless, that would be balanced to you?
Think of balance how you like, I will think of it in wider terms.

*Looks above.*

Hmmm, I don't see where I said that, at any time. In fact, that's quite the logic leap for you to have misstated it as that...

But, no, that wouldn't be balanced. Any summon system should either A) offer the same summons to all classes OR B) offer roughly comparable, in terms of actual power, summons for each class that can use the Summon spells. Why would we do either of those? In order to maintain class balance, so class X doesn't get better summons than class Y. I'm actually QUITE anal about balance, I assure you.


However, it's also NOT what we're discussing. From the standpoint of our server, warlock IS absolutely one of the more powerful classes.