Metagaming: Rules should exist

[sinsemilla]

Most players joining the server do not even register on the forums and therefore have no idea the rules there, nor do they read the rules when logging in.
I have run into many who have no idea what metagaming is, or at least they play ignorant if caught doing it. One phrase I hear when I remind people of rules when I see them being broken.

"I never heard of that rule."

Ignorance is not an excuse, and all you can do is make the statement to remind. Also no reason to send a tell to alert anyone your intent ic.
And your description by way of examine should be only what you can see of the character.
You cannot put anything in that and then claim metagaming. Why? Because it is meant to be an examine of the character when you see them. You cannot see from a glance that a person is, "Born in Waterdeep, Worshiper of Bhaal, raised by wolves."
It should read more like; "Tall blonde haired, blue eyed man in shining armor wearing a symbol of Tyr. etc..."
As I said with using the forums, if it is information that should not be known at a glance, don't put it in your description. If you post in the Role play section of the forums, that information is now public and not a metagame. You put it in a public roleplay section making it common knowledge.
The best way to prevent metagaming is not open yourself up to it, and make your business public knowledge. Keep it in game and make people work for it.
Last thing I will say on this, forget you can see the name over a persons head. You walk around in real life and not see a name over someones head. So as the Rules say, this is not Wal-Mart, there are no name tags here. Using the name above the head is cheap and worthless, you wouldn't like it if someone you never met comes up to you and calls you an assassin because they saw your name in a post on the forums or they overheard your name around the campfire and now they know who you are. So best not to be the THEY in that statement.

[CrispyWalrus]

Ignorance is no excuse though, putting it bluntly, if the description says something is hidden, sense motive or not, its hidden, stop nitpicking that one.

As Lenara says, people who consiously look over your name tag and recognise you despite being disguised can be forgiven once or twice, ill give you that Gomok.

But...

Doing this repeatedly, can be intentional, some players just dont "learn" not to do it and thats the problem, thats why there should be a more clear rule there to encourage others to take note that what they see isnt what they automatically know, learning things ICly is far more fruitful than spoiling a well concieved plot with ooc meta-gaming.

This isnt really a matter I think needs to be debated, its very clear there are rules already in place, my only thought was to make them more evident for players joining the server and for players on the forum to make it clear that meta-gaming is a no-no. Without a tag, people "will" assume and asking everyone to police themselves is ignorance, society abides to social laws, they need to be there for a reason.

I am not debating whether metagaming is right or wrong. I think we all can agree that it sucks and is the bane of good RP. I am debating the thread's leading assumption that we need more rules. Ignorance is an excuse (at least the first time it happens). This server is not like the countless number of other servers out there with a very small base of hardcore RPers. Though putting in an abundance of rules is the first step towards driving folks away and becoming another one of them. We have all sorts of players and some that are new to RP and that means that some times you need to educate someone; and if they persist with their bad RP then you don't play with them-- simple as that. The beauty of this server is that it has plenty of players.

If you have a repeat problem with a particular player or feel you are being grieved OOC then go to a DM-- that is a rule; but it is actually the courtesy thread that speaks to metagaming player name tags by saying that "Wal-Mart Employees Have Name Tags - PCs Do Not." It is not a rule (though as I mentioned in my last post, I'd lump it under rule #1) . You may also think that I am nitpicking but I really do find it absolutely ludicrous for you to say "if the description says something is hidden, sense motive or not, its hidden." If something is hidden then it should be hidden. Let any knowledge come about through the RP as you wish. However, if something is in the description anyone can read then it is not hidden. This is a clear case of metagame entrapment if I ever heard one.

PS. On the forums I'm Crispy. Gomok is just one of my characters, and I'm actually playing Berto currently. I reread the thread but I have no idea who Lenara is...

[sinsemilla]

Lenara is my Character that last week was metagamed 2 separate times because players could read my name but ignored the fact that I was in a mask and different clothes.
Matter of fact I have changed outfits and hoods or mask everyday for the last two weeks to avoid being known, but it doesn't help because above my head was;
Latoonoo Gatsoolm'boobt aka Lenara.

So obviously she is a demon and should be attacked. Pfft.
So a name change later and a week in the UD, an end to my RP which would have been a nice bit of Demon rp being brought in is dead now and I am left with a mid level sorceress and nothing to do with her anymore, but try to find a new path for her rp.

We don't need more rules, Players need to pay attention to detail.
Also this also should go without saying, if you see someone and you think you know them, rp it. If they lie and roll a bluff, don't continue as they never rolled to lie. You must respond to the roll to try and prove you know they are lying about who they are.

This is all common sense for RP.

[CrispyWalrus]

Dang! Now I have this IC knowledge OOCly...

Well said Sinse (Sensei?)

Conveniently enough mention of using common sense is the last topic in the courtesy thread. *claps*

[Smyssel]

Same here.

In one of my characters description, a text is included describing how my character is covering his eyes when wearing a hat, by lowering his head, looking down at the floor, and tilting the hat so that the bill -will- cover them. The hat even covers his eyes in the character portrait when you target him.

Then there I was, sitting on a bench near the campfire, having specificly emoted that my character had tilted his hat and lowered his head, while looking down and into the fire. All of a sudden two elves who were standing next to the road, and had previously shown no interest in him, rushes towards him without a word, and before I knew it they were both standing, right in front of him, then stands there for a moment, again without a word, only to zoom in their cameras to take an OOC look on his eyes. Then one of them asks why his eyes are red and starts acting hostile.

I mean, what the hell... Just because you read about a detail suggesting a character is hiding something, it does not mean you can run up to the character OOC to find out what that detail is, then start your RP from there.

[cwhit]

To IMPART knowledge via ooc channels is also metagaming imo

You are setting things up so that you can claim someone is just metagaming you and you can walk off in a huff. There should be a rule against it.

I do not read Examine boxes IG or bio's or memoires on the forums simply because there may be info in there I could not know.

@crispy yeah I get what you are saying about listen checks.
And I would be fine with 1 bluff vs spot to maintain a disguise.
The whole voice thing could be wrapped up into one big package.

But certainly saying "I'm disguised" is simply not enough.

As for the clothes changing. I know I might not recall what you were wearing.
I see a name and think yep I remember this person. If we could change names IG too we could tag with OOC we do want known too like part of PvP ok club

[ragnarok1983]

OMG I am the readz, this iz yuur fault!

Haha. I use the IG bios to portray things that most people CAN see with the naked eye. It only becomes OOC knowledge if your particular character is blind.

Granted, one look at Nog and you will pray for blindness.

[CrispyWalrus]

It's been mentioned and requested many times before, but maybe it's finally about time for Kemo Bio. People could update their descriptions to what is currently visible-- perhaps denote that they are indeed attempting a disguise and request a Spot roll...

[Smyssel]

Descriptions are handy for explaining how a certain character looks like, it does not have to include a character's past, as that information is extremely uneccesary. Pretending to know anything about a character's past is metagaming unless there are two IC siblings or the like.

People who include character appearance, body language, or similar, does so so that others can get a general understand of how the character is like at a first glance, to enhance roleplay, and is meant for everyone to detect.

Sometimes there are more secretive stuff about one's appearance that is meant to be there as a chance for characters to detect during RP, not to invite metagaming. Afterall, you are the one who decides whether your character should attempt to detect something odd, like say rolling a spot check or whatever is propriate, but you do not have to. Perhaps you simply want to wait for the character himself or herself to reveal it. It is just a hint, nothing absolute. This does NOT mean you simply know it out of the blue for no reason.

[sinsemilla]

We have our own bio editor that will be in soon, but to me that is only going to encourage people to write extensive bios which will lead to more metagaming. As for putting in it that you are in disguise, well that seems to tell me that we must rely on all to read it and personally I only look at examine once, when I first meet someone. After that no need to keep looking. And those that just look at names now still will.

Time to educate the masses into the world of RP.

I personally think that you should have to register on the forums and read the rules as well I think there should be a rule book in every persons inventory like the PvP rules. If you violate the rules once you are warned, twice you lose a level, three times and you get a 2 week ban. Come back and do it again and you can find a place to play where they tolerate ass-hats.

We should all be adult enough to play and be fair in your game play.
Most metagaming is done out of pure desire to win. And this is an Non-Winnable server.
It is so much more fun when people will just Play Their Role and quit trying to beat the game.

[Laurk]

I disagree that listen should not be used to spot a fake voice in a disguise.

Listen is a Wisdom based skill. When you roll a listen check, it isn't too see if your ears are working at the moment, and if you roll a natural 1, it doesn't mean you've temporarily gone deaf. Listen, much like spot, is a measure of how attuned you are to little clues which others might not notice.

As an example, someone with a high listen skill might hear s a tiny noise and realize it for a shoe scuffing against a crate, whereas a low listen score PC might not even notice the sound because it didn't register as "significant." They just logged it away as ambiant noise.

Other examples are like when an animal begins making a certain cry, that it means someone is about, or when the bugs stop chirping... when a person is inconsistant with his accent, putting differant stresses on the same word each time it is repeated. You don't make listen checks to find out if you hear or do not hear a noise, you make them to find out if you notice, or understand what it is you are hearing as being significant. Therefore, listen is the perfect skill to identify someone who is trying to disguise their voice. It is a measure of a person's audio perceptiveness or awarness.

A high spot for example might be someone enters a room and immediatly notices a bit of dirt on the floor near a shadowy recess that is a tell tale sign that someone might have gone that way. Someone who pays attention to reflective surfaces that other's night not look at... or looks for shape rather than color, like a good hunter does.

[mute83]

i havent read most of it. but i agree. not knowing the rules, is no excuse

[sinsemilla]

Nice Laurk, Good Examples.

[CaptainVanguard]

Small note on that: id debate that when looking enviromentally, spot needs to be replaced with search because spot is simply looking for something specific, search is looking for "anything" out of the ordinary in a given area.
Id say that Spot applies more towards body language, character features, things that apply more to an individual situation rather than a whole.

[devildog30]

Another form of metagaming, is the EVAC PMs. If you're out grinding and fall due to a PvE encounter. Don't send a tell to your friends asking to be resurrected. Take the exp hit and get back in the game! Or wait until someone stumbles upon your toon's body. If this continues, I'm going to start destroying corpses, when ever I see them.