Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

i personally picked the skills amplified by the might makes right as i felt them the most appropriate for such an ability. and lowering the buff down to 1/2 but leaving the duration seems most effective for balancing the RP and the mechanical. i would personally still like it to be 24hrs, because i know my RP always goes well beyond the min/CL time limit. RP is slow by nature compared to the running clock.

if the buff for the eye spell was lowered to 3, would that make it a better? the balance of spot and hide are a balance that need not to be toyed with, but i do not see it as such a huge buff considering the many MUCH BETTER alternatives to a spotter than a cleric. even if the buff was 10 it would still not be the best spotter. you know this.

PS.. there is no mechanical benefit to the scent feat and is only considered if the players wish it to be applied. i have NEVER had anyone give me a tactical read from this when they hold an advantage of sneaking. and there is ONLY ONE player that has ever given me that consideration and it was for conflict RP purposes. and one of the best RPers on the server to boot.

Warning
Spell level: Innate level: 2, Cleric: 2, Paladin: 2
School: Divination
Descriptor(s): Helm
Components: Verbal and Somatic
Range: Self
Target/Area: Personal
Duration: turn /level
Save: none
Spell resistance: No

This spell heightens the subject's senses and awareness of danger. The subject gains a +4 insight bonus on Listen and Spot checks.

That's what already exists, so the first if added should be balanced according to that.

Might Makes Right

Spell Level: Innate: 3, Cleric 3 (Gruumsh only)
School: Evocation
Components: Verbal and Somatic
Range: Personal
Target/Area: Caster
Duration: 1 Minute/Clevel
Save: Harmless
Spell Resistance: No

The Overloard of the Orcs gives to his strong followers. He knows that a strong orc makes the strongest leaders. That orcs will follow power over persuasion. For the duration of the spell, the caster's strength bonus is applied to the caster's Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and Taunt Skill score as a sacred bonus.

Same question as everyone else. Why would strength increase diplomacy and sense motive. Why would Gruumsh do anything to increase diplomacy and sense motive?. Intimidate and Taunt i could understand.

i do not see it as a being more diplomatic as much as, the ones see you in a manner that lowers the resistance to such a skill. same with the sense motive.. they are slightly less able to trick or deter your thoughts as well because of how strong you are and the respect they have in such strength. or lack there of.

and to do this without the mechanical benefit of lowered saves or whatever.

obviously these are propositions and are far from perfect. so you guys provide input so that they can be made to not only fit lore, but also not upset some specific mechanical balances. and do not think of my comments as resistance to change but as just discussion to find the right place.

aaron22 wrote:PS.. there is no mechanical benefit to the scent feat and is only considered if the players wish it to be applied. i have NEVER had anyone give me a tactical read from this when they hold an advantage of sneaking. and there is ONLY ONE player that has ever given me that consideration and it was for conflict RP purposes. and one of the best RPers on the server to boot.

actually, if toggled hostile you should be able to see players on your minimap. However, you won't actually see them in the game world without passing a spot/listen check. I have never tested this myself though, just recall reading it on these forums at some point. If you want to test it sometime send a tell when you see me in game. Obviously this only works if you have some cooperation from other players to toggle hostile prior to beginning RP or if you already have them set hostile before they HiPS (or if the group hostile thing is done). As to your point about players not offering a tactical read, obviously there is not much that can be done about forcing fair play on players. Every scenario has two sides I'm sure so it's likely they would have some reason not to... Meh, this is why I stick to what can be done/should be done mechanically.

24 hours is a long time to provide bonuses. You also have to consider players creating potions/scrolls/wands with these spells on them. It's about all the available stacking bonuses, not just the bonuses available to Clerics.

chad878262 wrote:24 hours is a long time to provide bonuses. You also have to consider players creating potions/scrolls/wands with these spells on them. It's about all the available stacking bonuses, not just the bonuses available to Clerics.

pretty sure that is cheating. if not.. should be.

chad878262 wrote: toggled hostile you should be able to see players on your minimap

pretty sure that is just tracking feat. could be wrong.. only play orcs sooooo. right.

aaron22 wrote:i do not see it as a being more diplomatic as much as, the ones see you in a manner that lowers the resistance to such a skill. same with the sense motive.. they are slightly less able to trick or deter your thoughts as well because of how strong you are and the respect they have in such strength. or lack there of.

and to do this without the mechanical benefit of lowered saves or whatever.

obviously these are propositions and are far from perfect. so you guys provide input so that they can be made to not only fit lore, but also not upset some specific mechanical balances. and do not think of my comments as resistance to change but as just discussion to find the right place.

That makes little sense to me. To me "Might makes right" means smacking the guy down who's trying to negotiate. Diplomacy is not a combative skill, it's frankly the opposite. DM's only ever ask for it when your attempting to negotiate something, which you won't be doing because that's words not might.

ZestyDragon wrote:Same question as everyone else. Why would strength increase diplomacy and sense motive. Why would Gruumsh do anything to increase diplomacy and sense motive?. Intimidate and Taunt i could understand.

Mountain orcs are chaotic evil. Grey orcs tend to be neutral-to-chaotic evil.

I am lazy, so I just pulled this from the Forgotten Realms wiki:

The chaotic evil alignment is power without control, selfishness unrestrained by law and order. Chaotic evil characters act according to whatever their greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drives them to do. Whether out for themselves, or dedicated to a cause that spread evil and chaos, they are ruthless and brutal in their execution.

Typically, they can only be made to align and work with others through force or coercion, with leaders lasting only as long as they could thwart attempts at being overthrown or assassinated. Ultimately, these characters will commit any act to further their own ends.

Many serial killers would fit this description, as would indeed most of the more violent and reckless criminals found in the worst sorts of places.

Now, another thing to consider is that the skill intimidate does not produce a lasting effect. Therefore, intimidate alone is not exceedingly good at keeping large groups in check for long. It is what makes the formation of great orcish war bands difficult and a rare occurance. Even though chopping off the head of an opposing tribe leader spells the end of that leader's rule, it is still not a 100% guarantee that the entirety of the tribe will be absorbed into a single new tribe. When the night or next day arrives, a considerable portion of orcs might have already wandered off on their own or attempted to claim the leadership for themselves. This applies to internal power struggles as well, and tribes can split and turn against each other.

Therefore, diplomacy might actually produce better results. The power hierarchy of the opposing tribe stays in place while they all 'bend knee' to their new chieftain. Finally, think of it from the perspective of the chieftain of the opposing tribe: instead of being gutted like a squeeling pig by a larger, stronger orc, they get to boss around their old tribe and potentially chance to rule even bigger tribe when the time is right. It is a great opportunity for some orcish diplomacy, is it not?

This brings us to the sense motive part of the spell. The new chieftain of the growing war band is sitting on a position that many other orcs are likely to prefer for themselves. It is important for that individual to know who he can 'trust' for now, and in the ruleset that is governed by the sense motive skill.

Finally Gruumsh is all about power. The weak cannot claim what the other races have stolen and cheated from the orcs. Hence, it kind of makes sense for a spell to exist that enables the creation of a leader that can unite the orcs under one banner, into one tribe that can bring forth untold destruction onto the world of Toril.

Did I answer your question?

Grunnmsh does not unite orcs through diplomacy and negotiation. It's intimidation, strength and maybe cunning. as you said your self orcish clans don't stay united for long, because orcs are chaotic and their hierarchy is based on strength. E.G fall in line or be killed and frankly a chaotic god is likely to always want a new leader to come along. failure or not constant challengers keeps the war chief strong. I concede that sense motive might make sense however, as constant challengers would keep you on guard.

pretty much what sun wukong says up there.....

and the PnP feat grants a "leadership" bonus in regards to the strength score. this leadership score is used to determine followers ranks, numbers and strength. we do not use such a feat here. good.

i then took skills that "i think" are leadership skill. the base 4 we all know. dip,intim,bluff,SM. i removed bluff from it as it counters orc lore and provides a mechanical bonus that is too powerful for that class. substituted taunt in there as it seemed more relevant anyway.

that is how i came up with it precisely.

let us not dive down the rabbit hole that is "what is chaotic and why can chaotic have a stable army with structure and discipline.. elves are chaotic.. they can be quite rigid. it is not as simple an aspect as chaotic means chaos.

for gruumsh i think the chaos comes from volatility and adaptability. he has ruled over the nishrek since the dawn.he has a order to his divine clan. a plane with rules and repetition. but he is chaotic..it is because DnD is weird.

Scent will put a dot on the minimap/map for a Hostiled foe, even if they are Hiding/HiPS. It still requires a successful Skill check to see them "with your own eyes." This why Scent is so good...and so broken. It *might* require a Survival skill check though...I can't say because so many of my Gray Orcs had very high Survival skills points, so it always worked for me.

Combine Scent with Fast Movement (gray orc), a Gray Orc PC can simply run away from Hipsters quick, turn around, and AoE in the direction their little dot appears on the map. Good times!

The trick here is that one can Hostile anyone using the Player List—your PC doesn't have to be in actual sight of the PC that you want to hostile.

Not that it matters as it isn't part of what the opposite wants, but scent is Mechanically track.

Then you could also bring up Obould Many Arrows from the Drizzt books. He had some magical rituals done on him as well to make him the literal representative of Gruumsh to the other orcs on Toril. A fantasy novel yes, but, still the same setting.

obould and wund and the black horde all kept long standing orc armies. just a few examples

So maybe just this one then :

The All Seeing Eye

Spell Information
Spell level : Cleric 3 (Gruumsh only)
School: Transmutation
Components: Verbal and Somatic
Range : Personal
Target/Area: Self
Duration: 1 min/CLevel
Save: None
Spell resistance: No

The One that Watches sees all. One devoted to the All Seeing god can channel this skill to his own sight making him able to see things more openly and clearly. There is no hiding from the view of the One that Doesn't Sleep, or his most devoted.

Gain a +4 divine bonus to Search and Spot skills as well as the improved initiative feat for the duration of the spell.