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Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:06 am
by ARHicks00
Sun Wukong wrote:Canaith Lyrist requires evasion... In Kaedrin's Pack and can be used to progress divine spell progression. It is a bit like the Frost Mage PRC in that regard. It is based on the Fochlucan Lyrist PRC that actually provides dual spellcasting progression to Bardic and Divine spellbooks, which in turn is based on the first edition bard that required you to be human or half-elf, have the following ability scores Strength 15+, Wisdom 15+, Dexterity 15+ and Charisma 15+, Intelligence 12+ and Constitution 10+, then start as fighter and dual class into thief, and dual class again into druid.
Perhaps custom Fochlucan Lyrist PRC could be added also. You know, one that requires something like 5 levels of Fighter but not more than 8, then at least 5 levels of Rogue or Phantom but not more than 9, and then at least 5 levels in druid or spirit shaman before they can take the Fochlucan Lyrist PRC.
The PRC could provide substantial lore bonuses, offer few additional fighter bonus feats, extra sneak attack dice, druidic spell progression, with some extra caster levels by spending their wildshapes, and some custom songs on top.
Requirements: Weapon Specialization (Fighter 4), Sneak Attack 3d6 (Rogue/Phantom 5), 3rd level druidic spells, (Druid 5/Spirit Shaman 6) (With some skill requirements too...)
You could have something like: Fighter 4/Rogue 5/Druid 11/Fochlucan Lyrist 10.
Got a Epic Canaith Lyricist (Or had one at least) build with cleric spells. Not overpowered and cleric spells (despite having persistant spell), didn't make the bard variation any different from a normal bard build. I just ended up buffing for "5 minutes" just to do the same freaking damage, I would do as a bard. The only thing it excelled at was being a "party buffer." (I kid you not) It also got Hymn/Song of Requiem. Canaith Lyricist isn't overpowerd as you think and you can always change the Evasion requirement to something else.
RP and PvE wise it was fun...but not overpowered.
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:11 am
by ARHicks00
metaquad4 wrote:You use Caniath Lyricist (spelling!) for STR bards, owing to the fact that it gives H-BAB and bard progression.
Nope. Played it on Port of Shadows and Tales of Amn as well as Dalelands. It's not for strength bards. A strength bard is good by itself. Canaith Lyricist is just like the Fighter in which helps with synergy between classes. Considering you lose your epic bonus feats, you wouldn't be much of a strength build compared to a pure class bard.
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:10 am
by chad878262
losing 3 epic GR STR feats vs. gaining +3 BAB for 10 levels is a fair trade with everything else they get. Will still hit ~24-26 STR, 28-30 after Bull's STR. However, this thread was about lyric thaumaturge so we should probably stick to that.
ARHicks00 wrote:1. Melodic Casting isn't overpowered as it works just like concentration. (I had this feat too) In addition, Bards don't have a whole lot of useful options with an extra 33 skills. As a bard you're looking at Listen, Diplomacy, Bluff, Concentrate, Open Lock 16, Tumble, Heal, and Lore: Arcana, and Spellcrafting. The other skills are garbage to a Bard and a Hide/Move silent are no use to them since they got invisibility.
Wrong, Bards have loads of options, perhaps you should check out our wiki a bit, we have a ton of custom skills including escape artist, disguises and about 6 or 7 lore skills. Skill points are at far more of a premium than vanilla. Also, hide/move silently is useful to anyone, especially with the limited spells per day a bard can cast.
ARHicks00 wrote:2. Actually, it high will save I think, low BAB, and d4 HP. I don't see the imbalance issue, but it seems most people are staring at the both Melodic Casting and the damage. I've played Kaedrink's Pack other servers prior to their fall. Not as overpowered as some of the other classes in his pack.
Kaedrin's gives it medium bab, d6 hp and high reflex and will saves, it's right there on his website. You're making points based on your experience I am sure, but when someone recommends "Kaedrin's" version of a class I and others can only go by what is posted to his website.
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:53 pm
by ARHicks00
chad878262 wrote:Wrong, Bards have loads of options, perhaps you should check out our wiki a bit, we have a ton of custom skills including escape artist, disguises and about 6 or 7 lore skills. Skill points are at far more of a premium than vanilla. Also, hide/move silently is useful to anyone, especially with the limited spells per day a bard can cast.
I am aware what skills they get, but you are better off focusing on the skilled I listed as they have a better impact the remaining skill set. Also Intimidate is good too.
Bards only have to hide/ms only if have Shadow dancer. Other than points into survival and Track is far better for scouting, but that is apples and oranges. There are invisible potions and wands you can use instead of regular stealth.
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:46 pm
by chad878262
Appraise - Epic shops make this immensely useful both when selling vendor trash (so that even +1 EB weapons sell for nearly max gold) and when buying epic items (in some cases saving 100K or more)
Bluff - RP/DM events, Feint
Concentration - so you can cast mirrors/displacement or ethereal visage while in combat
Listen - Detection
Perform - duh
Sleight of Hand - useful, though admittedly not strictly required.
Spellcraft - bonus to save vs. spells
Taunt - useful, but not needed
Tumble - +3 AC
UMD - duh.
That's 9 skills (not including any lore skills), of those 9, sleight of hand and taunt can be dropped, so down to 7. Bards get 6 SP per level, so with human or 12 INT they can max them, need more to put anything in lore, which is kinda their thing. Your list skips perform entirely (???) and also doesn't call out appraise or UMD.
As to hide/move silently, doesn't need HiPS to be useful. Bards can get really super high hide/move silently with buffs/inspiration/equipment and invisibility is far easier to counter. Better to have both, but honestly I'd skip it too unless I was building some kind of DEX based Bard. However, I would not by any means say that it's only useful if you have HiPS. There is more to stealth than the ability to dodge offensive spells. It has loads of useful applications where HiPS doesn't come in to play.
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:57 pm
by ARHicks00
I forgot about UMD too. Intimindate/Diplomacy/Bluff are goid RP skills.
Taunt sucks. I don't even bother with it even when playing a fighter type build.
Invisibility guarantee there is no spot roll.
Appraise...meh. Because the gold limit is 1250, my characters only carry items that are 600gp and up. I put trash and mudane items back in the chest. I know is good for buying too, but I don't mind paying full price.
I don't use concentrate because I prebuff before a dungeon.
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:25 pm
by mrm3ntalist
ARHicks00 wrote:Taunt sucks. I don't even bother with it even when playing a fighter type build..
Do you even know what taunt does?
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:58 pm
by ARHicks00
mrm3ntalist wrote:ARHicks00 wrote:Taunt sucks. I don't even bother with it even when playing a fighter type build..
Do you even know what taunt does?
Lowers an enemy NPC's AC by 2 and concentration based on a will save while causing an AOO on yourself. If you have a high AC, you can afford to do it. Somtimes the AOOs will draw aggro if enemies are nearby.
Also I forgot to mention parry is a great skill on a bard as I use it to make a bard into a legit tank.
So...
Perform
UMD
Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate (One or all)
Parry
Tumble
Spellcraft
Listen
Optional
Concentration - Unless you're battlecaster type bard
Spot - To avoid Feint and RP reasons
Appraise - Increase money and lower prices
Open - 10 to 16 skills
Lore: Arcana
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:14 pm
by mrm3ntalist
why you need to have high AC? I really dont think you have ever used it... if that is the case the rcr is still 100%. It is not one enemy it affects, but everyone within the radious. Taunt is the best skill for anyone who can have it. +2AB for a fighter"sucks"? While at the same time you say parry is "great". I think we are playing a different game
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:34 pm
by ARHicks00
mrm3ntalist wrote:why you need to have high AC? I really dont think you have ever used it... if that is the case the rcr is still 100%. It is not one enemy it affects, but everyone within the radious. Taunt is the best skill for anyone who can have it. +2AB for a fighter"sucks"? While at the same time you say parry is "great". I think we are playing a different game
I used in every server and the campaign mode so I know it increases in range, but it's not all that good because a fighter type can only fight one person at a time. If I'm having trouble hitting my enemy, it's my last resort and I know it stacks with other debuffs like Expose Weakness. However, a fighter can get up 50 to 57 AB so it's not hard hit most monsters in this server or others.
Parry is good for a bard, but not good for a heavily armored Fighter with a tower shield.
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:37 pm
by mrm3ntalist
We will talk about it in a year. I ll just bookmark this for now
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:37 pm
by Cenerae
ARHicks00 wrote:
Also I forgot to mention parry is a great skill on a bard as I use it to make a bard into a legit tank.
Parry is only useful if you go all in on Parry (including going at least 7 in Duelist for Elaborate Parry as well as gear to augment it). Just having 30 ranks in Parry doesn't make the thing useful because enemies can easily bash through that. And making bard a 'legit' tank is extremely easy without unreliable gimmicks like Parry, too (Recall that you can only parry the first attack made in each flurry...so a maximum of 3 swings per opponent per round). Between Inspire Defence, Curse Song, Song of Heroism, mirror images and displacement, you really shouldn't be getting hit much...
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:45 pm
by ARHicks00
Cenerae wrote:ARHicks00 wrote:
Also I forgot to mention parry is a great skill on a bard as I use it to make a bard into a legit tank.
Parry is only useful if you go all in on Parry (including going at least 7 in Duelist for Elaborate Parry as well as gear to augment it). Just having 30 ranks in Parry doesn't make the thing useful because enemies can easily bash through that. And making bard a 'legit' tank is extremely easy without unreliable gimmicks like Parry, too (Recall that you can only parry the first attack made in each flurry...so a maximum of 3 swings per opponent per round). Between Inspire Defence, Curse Song, Song of Heroism, mirror images and displacement, you really shouldn't be getting hit much...
33 Base skill + 18/+4 Dexterity + 4 Greater Heroism + 6 Inspire Competence + 3 Skill Focus = 50
I think there is Epic Skill +10 for parry for 60. I haven't read up on it.
Combine this with a high AC and it's hard to hit you. (Shield or not shield) It's best used with no shield.
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:00 pm
by Cenerae
ARHicks00 wrote:Cenerae wrote:ARHicks00 wrote:
Also I forgot to mention parry is a great skill on a bard as I use it to make a bard into a legit tank.
Parry is only useful if you go all in on Parry (including going at least 7 in Duelist for Elaborate Parry as well as gear to augment it). Just having 30 ranks in Parry doesn't make the thing useful because enemies can easily bash through that. And making bard a 'legit' tank is extremely easy without unreliable gimmicks like Parry, too (Recall that you can only parry the first attack made in each flurry...so a maximum of 3 swings per opponent per round). Between Inspire Defence, Curse Song, Song of Heroism, mirror images and displacement, you really shouldn't be getting hit much...
33 Base skill + 18/+4 Dexterity + 4 Greater Heroism + 6 Inspire Competence + 3 Skill Focus = 50
I think there is Epic Skill +10 for parry for 60. I haven't read up on it.
Combine this with a high AC and it's hard to hit you. (Shield or not shield) It's best used with no shield.
It's best used without trying to crutch on the gimmick and just using a normal high AC, without turning off your attacks and praying for ripostes.
But you do you, I guess.
Re: lyric thaumaturge
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:02 pm
by mrm3ntalist
It is very easy to be hit with parry. Unless you have a combination such as high AC, epic dodge and concealment. That is if you are fighting 1v1. If there are more mobs against you, you are going to be thrashed.