Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Bosses are the only content where debuffing is even relevant. Trash mobs are deleted by archers/ WM FBs/Muscle gishes/strength bards.

Hoihe wrote:Bosses are the only content where debuffing is even relevant. Trash mobs are deleted by archers/ WM FBs/Muscle gishes/strength bards.

Few years ago I helped you a lot with builds. You insisted on role-play first builds, instead of focusing on the mechanical power. Thus, I would advice you to roll and role play your character's flaws.

Sun Wukong wrote:

Hoihe wrote:Bosses are the only content where debuffing is even relevant. Trash mobs are deleted by archers/ WM FBs/Muscle gishes/strength bards.

Few years ago I helped you a lot with builds. You insisted on role-play first builds, instead of a focus on mechanical power. Roll and role play your characters flaws.

Flaws that only exist because of game design, not intended mechanics or role.

"I specialize in withering away the opposition so others can more easily finish them!"

"Uh, I can't do anything to that guy because .... reasons!"

"So you're useless?"


It doesn't help that some people in their infinite wisdom changed Expose Weakness form -15 AC to something I didn't even care to calculate yet.

It’s -6 AC now which is more than enough. I actually find it better now, it rarely misses as it always fires on your first and highest attack bonus. Before, it was very easy to use it on one of your last attack flurries and miss altogether. It also now doesn’t feature the auto-hit cheese, which some people built around.
Honestly, this whole thread is a non-issue. I’ve yet to see a class or a play style that can’t be viable on this server. This server is ‘easy mode’.

Hammer_Song wrote:It’s -6 AC now which is more than enough. I actually find it better now, it rarely misses as it always fires on your first and highest attack bonus. Before, it was very easy to use it on one of your last attack flurries and miss altogether. It also now doesn’t feature the auto-hit cheese, which some people built around.
Honestly, this whole thread is a non-issue. I’ve yet to see a class or a play style that can’t be viable on this server. This server is ‘easy mode’.

Counterpoint: You cannot control which attack flurry contains Expose Weakness. I frequently had it fire on a killing blow. I trust my character to be perceptive enough with her experience fighting a lifetime's of battles to recognize when a blow will finally pierce the enemy defences and strike true.

And yet, I land an expose weakness on a mob with 5 HP left, and then left to struggle landing consistent hits for 2 rounds on a full HP enemy wailing away at me with inflated attack bonus.



As for non-viability: Try a gish that doesn't self-buff and uses sword to save their spells for the boss/large amount of mobs. It just doesn't work at an equal CR despite arguably being the intended use of an intelligence bladesinger-style character.

Camera9 wrote:Hi guys,

am I the only one having problem with the Crippling Strike's effect not applying against some bosses?
I didn't see it working against the Green Dragon or the Fire Giant or the Balor. They are definitely not immune to critical hits so I'm just checking if I missed something...

Thanks in advance for any explanations ^_^

chad878262 wrote:As designed, unfortunately. Rogues/ Swashbucklers abilities are pretty much designed against by the high end bosses. Also makes poisons relatively useless in boss fights. You're only option is to use UMD for defense (which means warding up, eating greater dispel/ breach/ mords, then warding up again) and HiPS to slowly whittle down the massive HP. Like most non caster builds taking on top end bosses like fire giant and balor will usually cost as much as you make unless you get a really nice item drop. Not to say rogues aren't strong in other situations, but many epic bosses are defended against many of their abilities.

Building a character solely to tackle bosses will be that character's forte and not much else. It's not even regarded as end game content of BGTSCC, and misses the point of the PW. I have a halfling I'm playing that's great at appraise and half way decent with abundant wanding, I don't expect it to be treated with demigod potency just because I can bowl a CR range with items.

Hoihe wrote:

Camera9 wrote:Hi guys,

am I the only one having problem with the Crippling Strike's effect not applying against some bosses?
I didn't see it working against the Green Dragon or the Fire Giant or the Balor. They are definitely not immune to critical hits so I'm just checking if I missed something...

Thanks in advance for any explanations ^_^

Crippling strike works vs green dragon and fire giant, idk about balor

A weak counter point considering the feat is still mechanically very powerful. And honestly, a stacking -15 debuff is beyond ridiculous.

Low CL gishes absolutely work. If you’ve sacrificed CL, you must’ve gained in other areas. I’ve seen people like Chad and others advise people multiple times to equip like a fighter and use no save spells or short duration buffs for hard fights or against non-dispellers. It really isn’t tricky. I just think you think every build, no matter how gimped, should be able to solo every aspect of the server.

Now, all this aside - you’ve been an awesome contributor to this server for a long, long time now and we’re better for having you around but lately I’ve noticed your posts have much more negative aspects to them. Surely it isn’t something minor like game mechanics causing this? If it is just mechanics, would you allow us to build you a gish (with your requirements) that’ll work from an RP and PvE perspective? If it isn’t mechanics, go back to your roots, group up with mates and have fun .... or, maybe a break is needed?

Hoihe wrote: Acid fog is blasting.

Enervation doesn't work on bosses. Energy drain doesn't work on bosses. Avasculate I am not certain if it works on all bosses. For debuffing in context of BGTSCC, only bosses matter.

Try debuffing every single mob you encounter. As a wizard, you'll either run out of spells or not even get to cast it because your party's archer will delete trash mobs (as is their job - I am not saying take it away from them).

Try debuffing every single mob as a swashbuckler. Ditto - whatever you do is useless because trash mobs are already dead and most bosses are immune.

The only debuff that sort of exists in Expose Weakness and Feint. Maybe (mass) Curse of Impending Blades as I am yet to find a boss immune to that. (Although knowing our concept of balance, just for my pleasure bosses will receive spell immunity to it because they become "too easy" if people can hit them without maxed strength/dex).

Cloudkill/acid fog and the like are Damage Over Time and not debuffs.

So, firstly, a few facts are wrong:
1) Energy drain does work on bosses. I have used them on the server before.
2) You don't debuff every last mob. You debuff the ones that matter. That isn't just bosses. I think you mentioned in an early post that you had difficulty with dispel mobs? They are a great thing to use disabling debuffs on, as an example.
3) You seem to have taken the traditional definition of a debuff and warped it in order to suit your argument. Using the nominal gaming definition aka an effect that hampers the target in some way, we've got a fair few effects. Example spells that cause them are in the parenthesis.

• *AC Removal (Mass/Curse of Impending Blades)
  *Stat Removal (Clubbed Feet, Ray of Enfeeblement, Touch of Idiocy, Feeblemind, Cloudkill)
  *AB Removal (Bigby's Interposing Hand)
  *Energy Drain (Enervate, Energy Drain)
  *Blindness (Sunburst, Sunbeam, Mass/Blindness-Deafness)
  *Knockdown (Whirlpool)
  *Confusion (Confusion, Chaos)
  *Sleep (Hiss of Sleep)
  *Deafen (Shout, Greater Shout)
  *Stun (Cloud of Bewilderment, Avasculate, Power Word: Stun)
  *Petrify (Stone to Flesh)
  *Grapple (Bigbys Grasping Hand, Bigby's Crushing Fist)
  *Polymorph (Baeful Polymorph)

And that is only a few examples from the wizard/sorcerer spell list. Druids have a good amount of debuffs too, and clerics have slightly less (depending on the domains picked). Of course, warlocks make good debuffers as well, as they actually -can- afford to try and debuff every mob you run against (though with more limited effects and lower DCs).

---
So, with those out of the way:
If you are trying to debuff every single mob, you are missing the point of playing a debuffing caster in NWN2. That is like playing a tank and not realizing that because nwn2 lacks aggro mechanics, you have to phyiscally body-block enemies with WASD to make the AI attack you. You target the mobs that can hurt your party. You save your spells for the mobs that your party can't deal with as efficiently (or for herding and AoEing down mobs, if your group is savy). If your party isn't going to encouter any (and you know that for sure), you spec for summoning (really good for sustaining yourself) or short-term buffing (displacement, haste, stoneskin if you are an arcanist).

Hoihe wrote: Flaws that only exist because of game design, not intended mechanics or role.

"I specialize in withering away the opposition so others can more easily finish them!"

"Uh, I can't do anything to that guy because .... reasons!"

"So you're useless?"

Maybe the way you envision your intended role isn't in this game. Maybe you need to change the way you play the role and innovate your builds/gameplay, in order to fit the game itself. Maybe you are struggling, because you are trying to invent a specific role for a class that isn't as competant in that role as others. Or, maybe the role you envision doesn't exist at all and you need to re-evaluate your exectations of reality in order to come up with something that will work.

I suggest you do one of two things, with what I'm currently seeing:

• *Play a warlock. You won't have as many debuffs, but you'll be able to debuff in a radius and you'll be able to do it to every last mob. Noxious and Repelling Blast are both pretty nasty.
  
  *PvP more. Especially in group PvP, debuffs are very relevant for success.

That will ensure you get as close as possible to what you want. Since I've rarely seen you PvP, playing a warlock will be the most viable of the two options.

Warlock RP is very undesirable.

PvP - I avoid DM plots that even hint at possibility of having to deal with CvC like the plague. Only thing it leads to is one party trying to force the other to permadie or permamaim.

Hammer_Song wrote:A weak counter point considering the feat is still mechanically very powerful. And honestly, a stacking -15 debuff is beyond ridiculous.

Low CL gishes absolutely work. If you’ve sacrificed CL, you must’ve gained in other areas. I’ve seen people like Chad and others advise people multiple times to equip like a fighter and use no save spells or short duration buffs for hard fights or against non-dispellers. It really isn’t tricky. I just think you think every build, no matter how gimped, should be able to solo every aspect of the server.

Now, all this aside - you’ve been an awesome contributor to this server for a long, long time now and we’re better for having you around but lately I’ve noticed your posts have much more negative aspects to them. Surely it isn’t something minor like game mechanics causing this? If it is just mechanics, would you allow us to build you a gish (with your requirements) that’ll work from an RP and PvE perspective? If it isn’t mechanics, go back to your roots, group up with mates and have fun .... or, maybe a break is needed?

Sure, I itemize exactly like a fighter would. But the other post that ended up partly inspiring this has the quality folk talking about wanting to put stat boost items on a single slot because... reasons. This leaves me with 36 (+2 single target) AC. A scroll of Mage Armour which I carry 3 lbs of to deal with dispels boosts it to 40 (+2). 42 (+2) if I feel confident in not getting dispelled and use Improved Mage Armour. 49(+2) if I either feel the need for full arsenal.

It used to be 40-45 AC was enough for high end content except for the Vault and Fire Giants. Nowadays, I get torn down with 45 AC going to ogre caves unless I put on a DR and mirror image - thanks to dynamic scaling.

Hell, even 49(+2) AC is not always enough, forcing mirror image. I distinctly remember 50 AC being the golden number for immunity to everything but natural 20s unless you went to poke the Vault, the Balor or the White (or was suicidal and tried the Netherese maze).

Yup, you’re right, I remember those days too. However, my level 30 fighter maxes out at 45/6 AC and he does very well. Granted, he kills quick and has high strength to carry lots of consumables, so I’m not going to try to compare him to a gish.

Do us a favour, give us a list of requirements you have and we can see if we can come up with an acceptable build. With the 100% RCR coming up it will be a great time to make changes.

So, you don't want to play the class that would be perfect for the role you desire. That is on you, not on the game. 100% your decision, own it.

Because of that, you'll have to make druid, cleric, or wizard work. I've done wizards without app classes who end up with 33+SL DC, which is the highest I've managed.

I'd recommend druid first, wizard second, and cleric (with select domains) third, for what you are looking for.

But if you aren't satisfied RPing the builds that would achieve what you want, then I'm afraid you are simply not cut out to play a debuffer (on the account of not wanting to RP the build). That is all there is to that. Its not a game flaw, its a flaw with your desires not meshing (the mechanical desires clashing with the RP desires).

I'd advise choosing what you will enjoy playing mechanically first, then finding a way to RP it in a way you enjoy. Mechanics are a bit part of this game, even if it is an RP server. If you detest playing something mechanically, then that'll make you miserable every time there is an event, you go adventuring or looking for loot. . .

I've seen plenty of players dislike playing because they chose to make their build around their RP, rather than what they'll have fun playing. That is indeed a problem, but its a problem with the player.

Edit: Another possibility is a charisma bard. That can actually make a pretty potent crowd control build with stormsinger for offense sustain and storm of vengance, and dissonant cord for debuffing and lowering SR. Cloud Mind and Facinate are also fairly useful.

wait.. what?

AC and damage dealt need to balance on a scale.. you see if you do 50-100 damage/2sec then 40 AC will work great.. you will almost never be hit in a CR20 area. if you do 10damage/2 secs, you will need to have a lot more defense. its just how it is. I dont ever remember a time it was not like this.

you have spells, but dont use them? I would get eaten alive too if i rolled out my druid unbuffed. murdered.

i think there needs to be more info to solve your issue

not buffing because you might get dispelled is not good. you are essentially dispelling yourself. like a max dispell right off the bat. dont do that.

I mean aside from the long list of debuffs aplethoraof posted above there are still a ton more classes that can defuff every mob effectively.

Bards (Curse Song)

Black Guard (Despair Aura)

Clerics or War Priest (Battle Tibe)

A few summons have debuff auras as well (Epic Dragon fear aura) (Angelic aura)

These are just a few debuffs off the top of my head that i know linger. So you can debuff every single mob for your group. Hell if you really wanted to you could even put then together. Bard/ black guard/ cleric / war priest.

Now you have curse song, aura of despair, and battle tide all in one class for lingering debuffs.

(While it might not be perfectly optimal. I belive this is what aplethoraof was talking about in his post. You need to think out the box and make what mechanics and playstyles that WORK in the server work for a specific way you want them to in character creation.)