Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Problem with individual rulings:

You RP being X. That works with Y DM's interpretations of checks.

Then comes along a "Players need to be challenged DM Z" and suddenly your d20srd/PhB/DMG/Y DM supported capabilities become nil and you have to deal with the IC backlash at being a charlatan. I had to deal with getting sea sick on a character that spent 20 years at sea while rolling a 27 fort vs a DC of 35 (because I was level 30 so I need a "challenging DC"), then having to deal with people wondering if my char's background as a veteran sailor is fabricated.

Or that particular DM who decided that rolling a natural 20 on strength means you PERMANENTLY AND IRREVERSIBLY rip your muscles to shreds and not even Regenerate/Greater Restoration can fix it. I am not kidding.

Or imagine being Merielle the Living Saint of Ilmater and being unable to heal a missing finger because some OOC reasoning the DM has about their views on story.

I stepped back, came back and still encountered the rather... charged atmosphere of being willing to jump on someone for "not playing their sheets" (according to their interpretation of course. Which also means none of the NPCs do but that's irrelevant)

@Rain:

Character studies the Weave. Focuses more on theoretical aspects than applied, but that still mandates wizard levels (and quite a few - you can't have pure theory without experimentation).

@Chad

Current DMs I have no experience with. However, it's a fools deed to trust easily after being slighted. I much rather remove the need to trust by reinforcing possible points that may cause unintended consequences.

Should abuse occur, even if handled, it will still leave echoes. It's the same issue that metagaming causes. Sure you can punish the root of information, but that information becomes free game afterwards. Someone who hears metagamed knowledge from someone who heard it from someone who also heard it from someone who heard it from the metagamer has no indication that the knowledge is illicit.

The situations you stated are (IMO) complete bs on the part of dms and should have been argued and reported. DC35 to avoid getting sea sick? Sailors are still mostly level 0 commoners, that DC is like 15 tops, probably lower. A natural 20 should never result in as negative outcome and deciding magic just doesn't work without deity intervention is (again) bs.

I get what you're saying, but the fact is this is not and will never be pnp. If you want to enjoy your character ALL the time you are going to need to find a happy medium between mechanics and rp. Right now the mechanics of your build are simply terrible and will result I n frustration

You can't have it all Hoihe.

Build your character that way you want it be be seen RP wise.

Complaining after that, that your RP based character cannot solo content is silly, use your RP based character for RP as that is what the character and quite frankly you the player should strive at.

Favored soul power builds have enough skill points to MAX out concentration and spellcraft. That's about it.

Power builds in general spend most of their points of power skills then RP skills thus the only role they play in DM events are being the ring leaders in events that have a player count of 6 or more and are slaughter fest.

Thus you can avoid those ones or even since you like HiPs just play the background.

If a DM is still making it hard for you even as an RP based class build then i would take it up with the HDM's and if not the HDM's who ever is above them as from what im seeing you have alot of skill points and knowledge on this swashbuckler wizard build. If you can't beat DC's with that in an event then yes i see a problem with the DM who denied you the success roll.

Because from what ive seen from above DC 35's on sea sickness you are exaggerating that, highly.

And exaggeration like that means a DM pissed you off previously. Which means you PM their higher ups with your frustration.

Hoihe wrote:Build me a moon elven "Gandalf"-style gish.

Unalienable requirements:

• AT LEAST 14 charisma.
• AT LEAST 210 skill points.
• HAS wizard baseclass.
• Does NOT wear armour.
• Does NOT use conjuration (summoning/calling).
• Does NOT use evil spells.
• Does NOT use Enchantment (Compulsion - as in the dominate line)
• AT LEAST 6th circle spellcasting
• Does NOT rely on round/level buffs (exception: Allowed for boss fights)
• HAS Silent Spell (so that I can take my french leave without giving people the opportunity to stop me to avoid PvP/CvC by essentially invisibly teleporting out due to Teleport being naturally auto stilled, and with Silent spell, it's undetectable without magical observation)
• Has HiPS/Evasion
• Perform is a class skill
• ALL knowledge skills are class skills
• Diplomacy is a class skill
• Tumble is a class skill
• AT LEAST 20 dex/int
• HAS Natural Leader background feat
• ONLY uses 1 of the ring slots (1 ring slot is dedicated to the Ring of Untherite Generals for Expert Tactician feat, mass healing AND romantic RP purposes)
• Playable from level 25

Wizard 10/Frost Mage 10/Arcane Scholar 7/Shadowdancer 3

• It has at least 14 charisma.
• You got 211 skill points. You could have more, but you wanted 20 dexterity.
• Wizard is the base class and the only base class.
• It wears no armor.
• You do not have summon things.
• You do not have to use spells with [Evil] Descriptor.
• You do you have to use Enchantment to dominate minds of others.
• You got access to 9th level spells with caster level of 30.
• Polymorph Self and Shapechange do well in their own right and have long duration with a multitude of forms to choose from. Just pick a form with Vampiric Weapon or Regeneration.
• I did you one even better, you got Autamatic: Still Spell 0-9! You could change those feats for 3 Great Intelligences or whatever else you might need or wish to have.
• You got both Evasion and ability to Hide in Plain Sight.
• Shadowdancer should get perform as a class skill. It is listed so in PnP, forums, but wiki seems to be slightly out of date on that department.
• Arcane Scholar has all Lore skills.
• Arcane Scholar has Diplomacy.
• Shadowdancer brings Tumble.
• You got at least 20 in both Dexterity and Intellligence, but you could drop dexterity to 19 in all fairness.
• You got that broken mess as your background feat.
• What your character puts into his fingers is your choice.
• As long as you remember to take Augment Form at level 23 and learn Shapechange, you can steamroll while polymorphed.

In a way it also meets your additional requirements. Basically, you can polymorph and fight like a gish with that 21 BAB you get. You can fling cold spells that ignore enemy immunities, which can come handy against bosses. And so on, and so on.

Take it or leave it.

Sun Wukong wrote:

Hoihe wrote:Build me a moon elven "Gandalf"-style gish.

Unalienable requirements:

• AT LEAST 14 charisma.
• AT LEAST 210 skill points.
• HAS wizard baseclass.
• Does NOT wear armour.
• Does NOT use conjuration (summoning/calling).
• Does NOT use evil spells.
• Does NOT use Enchantment (Compulsion - as in the dominate line)
• AT LEAST 6th circle spellcasting
• Does NOT rely on round/level buffs (exception: Allowed for boss fights)
• HAS Silent Spell (so that I can take my french leave without giving people the opportunity to stop me to avoid PvP/CvC by essentially invisibly teleporting out due to Teleport being naturally auto stilled, and with Silent spell, it's undetectable without magical observation)
• Has HiPS/Evasion
• Perform is a class skill
• ALL knowledge skills are class skills
• Diplomacy is a class skill
• Tumble is a class skill
• AT LEAST 20 dex/int
• HAS Natural Leader background feat
• ONLY uses 1 of the ring slots (1 ring slot is dedicated to the Ring of Untherite Generals for Expert Tactician feat, mass healing AND romantic RP purposes)
• Playable from level 25

Wizard 10/Frost Mage 10/Arcane Scholar 7/Shadowdancer 3

• It has at least 14 charisma.
• You got 211 skill points. You could have more, but you wanted 20 dexterity.
• Wizard is the base class and the only base class.
• It wears no armor.
• You do not have summon things.
• You do not have to use spells with [Evil] Descriptor.
• You do you have to use Enchantment to dominate minds of others.
• You got access to 9th level spells with caster level of 30.
• Polymorph Self and Shapechange do well in their own right and have long duration with a multitude of forms to choose from. Just pick a form with Vampiric Weapon or Regeneration.
• I did you one even better, you got Autamatic: Still Spell 0-9! You could change those feats for 3 Great Intelligences or whatever else you might need or wish to have.
• You got both Evasion and ability to Hide in Plain Sight.
• Shadowdancer should get perform as a class skill. It is listed so in PnP, forums, but wiki seems to be slightly out of date on that department.
• Arcane Scholar has all Lore skills.
• Arcane Scholar has Diplomacy.
• Shadowdancer brings Tumble.
• You got at least 20 in both Dexterity and Intellligence, but you could drop dexterity to 19 in all fairness.
• You got that broken mess as your background feat.
• What your character puts into his fingers is your choice.
• As long as you remember to take Augment Form at level 23 and learn Shapechange, you can steamroll while polymorphed.

In a way it also meets your additional requirements. Basically, you can polymorph and fight like a gish with that 21 BAB you get. You can fling cold spells that ignore enemy immunities, which can come handy against bosses. And so on, and so on.

Take it or leave it.

Right, polymorphing is also something Atria avoids. Worked hard enough for those knife ears to eschew them for power. (plus you can't cast on cue from polymorph).

@Rain

Trust me - there were a few DMs who slapped you with DCs like that. Sometimes simply because they took your HD and added 10/20 to decide on a DC, not thinking about NPCs. Sometimes because they only looked at rolls.

@Chad

Most of it is borne of a single DM that no longer plays. But nothing prevents any of the new ones from being the same person under a new alias or someone who agrees with their interpretations.

Or that the DM is someone who is part of my "fan club", which another forum topic has rightly proven to exist amongst players .

@Hoihe

Nope never had a DM tell me to throw a DC 35 fort save on sea sickness, nor any kind of high DC for something as simple as not splitting on icy ground, swinging on a vine, reading an ancient tome that was written in plain common or not falling asleep after a long journey.

If i did the HDM's would have been given my complaint with quickness.

If i feel a DM ever gave me an unfair DC for something so simple, especially if my character biography was approved and stated i had background traits and knowledge of said for example "sailing" and the DC was a 35 or get sea sick. 1: I would have told the DM my complaint right then and there at the point of the DC check, and if that was unsuccessful then 2: I would voice my complaint to whoever his higher up is.

((But what am i talking about. We are getting off track this is the character building page let me get back to providing builds to hopefully solve the issue your having.))

Well Hoihe, it sounds like you need to play on BGTSCC in a bubble in which no DM influences your RP in any way, positively or negatively.

Steve wrote:Well Hoihe, it sounds like you need to play on BGTSCC in a bubble in which no DM influences your RP in any way, positively or negatively.

You have a concept.

You read d20SRB/PhB/DMG for details to figure out how to make a build that justifies the concept. This includes getting skill ranks within a certain range of DC to guarantee or make success more likely.

You concede that the DCs are "Ideal situations", and refer to diplomacy/Scrying/teleport rolls to figure out how un-ideal situations may affect the skill rolls. You plan your build around non-ideal situations that make sense.

You decide what makes sense by asking the following questions:

1. Would a level 0 commoner be able to do this?
2. If not, would a level 4 commoner be able to do this? (adjust for 8 so it's in line with BG having adventurers at level 15 x 2)
3. If not, would a level 0 Expert/Adept/Warrior/Aristocrat be able to do this?
4. If not, would a level 4 Expert/Adept/Warrior/Aristocrat be able to do this? (adjust for 8)
6. If not, would a level 1 Adventurer classed character be able to do this? (adjust to 2)
7. If not, would a level 4 adventurer classed character be able to do this? (adjust to 8)
8. If not, would a level 8 adventurer classed character be able to do this? (adjust to 16)
9. If not, would a level 15 adventurer classed character be able to do this? (Adjust to 30)
10. If not, would a level 20 adventurer classed character be able to do this? (Adjust to 40)

Make the following assumptions to answer the above:

1. The world is inhabited primarily by level 0 commoners who do things just fine
2. Level 4 commoners tend to be veterans at their professions
3. Level 0 specialists tend to be the second most common, and represent the majority of craftsmen/skilled labourers/scholars
4. Level 4 Specialists tend to be guild masters, senior scholars, high ranking millitary officers, what have you
5. A level 1 adventurer is relatively common, but tend to be able to accomplish more than most people.
6. A level 4 adventurer is still relatively common, but are rarely hindered by mundane aspects of life. Instead, they are able to survive sub-optimal circumnstances (think Army Rangers/Delta Force being trained to go days with barely no sleep and still do their job)
7. A level 8 adventurer is prepared to deal with extraoridinary matters. The only thing that will throw them off is doing things in the heat of combat, having no equipment AND bad environmental conditions. These guys are elites.
8. A level 15 adventurer does things that are the stuff of legends. A level 15 adventurer will somehow be able to find a hidden uncharted island working off of legends and hearsay and minimal data provided by poor weather conditions, broken instruments and such. They will not succeed always, but they have a good chance to do so. Doing a practised thing in poor conditions does not affect their chance of success.
9. A level 20 adventurer does what a level 15 does, except with much higher certainity. It also tends into mythical qualities, the stuff that greeks tell of their greatest heroes.

For the above, use the following rules depending on intended safety margin:
If NOT using the assumption that the world is twice its power level/PCs are half their own:

• For a level 0 Commoner, DC of 10 is the highest due to being untrained. Anything above DC 10 is very unlikely, unless training is not required for the skill or it's a safe. However, the idea remains that DC of 5 is realistic, 10 is possible, 15 is unlikely, 20 is lucky.
• For a level 0 specialist, adjust all DCs by 2-6 depending on stat spread. I'd go with 5 (full investment and ability affinity)
• For a level 4 commoner, DCs may be higher by 2-3 (assume cross-class/low int/1 ability affinity)
• For a level 4 specialist, Commoner 0 DCs may be increased by 5-9 (depending on stat spread, assuming class skill).
• For a level 1-4 adventurer, use specialist values, but tend towards higher due to stat affinity
• For a level 8 adventurer, take commoner 0 values and add 11 and stat affinity of 3 (+14)
• For level 15, take commoner 0 values and add 18 and stat affinity of 4 (+22)
• For level 20, take commoner 0 and add 23 and stat affinity of 5 (+28)

IF using the 2X assumption.

• For a level 0 commoner, values are the same. 5 for easy, 10 for possible, 15 for unlikely, 20 for lucky
• For level 0 specialist, values are the same (add 2-6 to commoner 0)
• For level 4 commoner (8), take commoner 0 and add 5 (cross class) and affinity of 1 (+6)
• For level 4 specialist (8), take commoner 0 and add 11 (class) and affinity of 2 (+13)
• For adventurer 1-4 (2-8), do as level 4 specialist, but affinity +1 compared to specialist for apporpriate. (+14 at 4)
• For adventurer 8 (16), take commoner 0 and add 19 to the DC for class skill and affinity of 4 (+25)
• For adventurer of 15 (30), take commoner 0 and add 33 and affinity of 6 (39)
• For adventurer of 20 (40), take commoner 0 and add 43 and affinity of 8 (51)

As long as the DMs keep in mind the probability of an NPC needing to do the same task, and what kind of NPC succeeding at it, DCs will remain normal.

It's an intuitive system that doesn't need looking at d20srd if the complaint is "it crashed the DM client to alt tab".

• A challenge that puts one encounters every day would be aimed at a commoner 0.
• A challenge that puts an average working NPC to the test would be aimed at specialist 0.
• A challenge that puts an experienced commoner to the test would be at commoner 4
• A challenge that requires a talented specialist with decades of experience would be at specialist 4
• A Challenge that puts Theseus/Odysseus to the test would be aimed at Adventurer 8
• A challenge that puts Orion to the test would be aimed at Adventurer 15.
• A challenge that puts Achilles/Heracles to the test would be aimed at adventurer 20.

Now think about the ridiculous DCs some DMs give (fit for Achilles/Heracles) for tasks that random NPCs do day to day (which they succeed at, otherwise society would fall apart).


Codify the above so that everyone can look at it and then assign their skill points/saves according to what they want their character to accomplish. Most will safely be able to aim at the "Army Ranger/Delta Force" level of specialist/adventurer 4 (8) and safely justify their RP.

Those who want herculean achievements (say, swaying an entire city with a moving speech) will have to pass a ridiculous DC - but such is acceptable. Furthermore, hidden modifiers can still exists as long as they make sense and are communicated somehow (especially for diplomacy, where the original opinion heavily influences the result. The same roll that makes a hostile person indifferent will make the indifferent person ready to die for your ideals.)

Perhaps the DM's in question you are complaining about are either.

A: New?

B: Inexperienced?

Or C: Not well versed in how to optimally scale DC's correctly to fit NWN2 game scaling?

Perhaps show this chart above ^^^^ You made to tell to help them better understand their flaws in the proceeding / future DC checks, yeah?

Showing and explaining it to them step by step may be beneficial and or helpful to them.

Edit: Hell i would just post that to the entire DM team to be honest.

Rain wrote:Perhaps the DM's in question you are complaining about are either.

A: New?

B: Inexperienced?

Or C: Not well versed in how to optimally scale DC's correctly to fit NWN2 game scaling?

Perhaps show this chart above ^^^^ You made to tell to help them better understand their flaws in the proceeding / future DC checks, yeah?

Showing and explaining it to them step by step may be beneficial and or helpful to them.

Edit: Hell i would just post that to the entire DM team to be honest.

Was a fairly experienced DM who broke my trust. A fairly experienced DM with a penchant for "Gritty/bittersweet endings" and to prove a "point".

Hoihe wrote:Now think about the ridiculous DCs some DMs give (fit for Achilles/Heracles) for tasks that random NPCs do day to day (which they succeed at, otherwise society would fall apart).

Codify the above so that everyone can...

Hoihe, it sounds from your text in this thread and the other one, that you feel you were wronged, and very likely were, in regard to RP-based-on-mechanics you were forced to comply with. And, that has had such a lasting effect upon your understanding of BGTSCC and your Role-play, your options for Role-play, that you're harboring a whole suit case full of attachments that no longer allow you to see a free and unhindered way forward.

Release your attachments, mate.

Furthermore, imho, a Player nor a DM nor the Community involved in game play should expect to codify their Builds and/or mechanics in order to NEVER fail a Difficulty Challenge, or just a difficulty.

That is no longer playing a game, that is fulfilling a script. Games involved skill + chance. Scripts are storytelling, NOT story building, and thus can have an adverse effect.

Which, in your case, it has had.

Are you having any fun anymore, Hoihe?

It also appears to have been ONE DM.

Hoihe, everything you posted actually seems really well thought out. Perhaps PM to the HDM's, DM's and Admins... Frankly it would be nice to have a BASELINE to go by as far as skill checks go. If I put 15 skill points in appraise, while that's less than half the total points I might have by level 30 it is still a significant investment. While I may not be the foremost appraiser on the Sword Coast, if I use it in my RP I would hope it's recognized that I should readily be able to identify the value of pretty much any common goods and some more specialized. As a Gem Merchant, if Finn were to have ~15-20 in appraise I would hope the DM's would accept that his focus is specifically on the identification and valuation of common, rare and very rare gems and jewelry.

I don't think it is fair to require or even suggest that all DMs have to somehow utilize the exact same DC's. However, having a loose guideline such as you describe above posted for players to know would allow folks to take RP skills to a REASONABLE level while still maximizing mechanical skills such as spot, move silently, hide, tumble, umd, concentration, spellcraft, etc. I have always struggled with how much bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, lore skills, etc. is 'enough' to warrant the given RP I establish for my PCs. Such a determination, agreed upon by server leadership would establish this. I have always considered the below as the breakdown of how skill points translate to PC's abilities, but I know most have their own views...

0 skill points - for untrained skills you might be able to succeed at simple tasks, but a low probability and your just as likely to irrevocably cause more harm than good.

1-5 skill points - You're a novice and it should be assumed you know enough to minimally not cause issues due to lack of skill/knowledge for simple tasks/checks. Doesn't mean it won't happen, but it's less likely.

6-10 points - You would be considered an "Apprentice" in whatever field/activity is espoused by the skill. Most moderate activities are within your capabilities, but difficult; taking more time and with a decent chance of failure. Simple tasks can still fail, but it's unlikely.

11-15 - A "Journeyman" at your craft, simple tasks are second nature and moderately difficult tasks are unlikely to go awry. You're by no means a Master, but you are abilities are better than average in the given tasks associated to the skill. Should you have a 'specialty' documented it's likely that you might be better at that specialty and worse at those tasks not associated to the specialty. (So in my example of a gem merchant with appraise, you might get a bonus on checks involving gems and jewelry, but penalties to everything else, this would be up to interpretation by DMs, in any case).

16-20 - You are a "Master" at your craft... To your point, @Hoihe, IMO if someone has dedicated enough skill points to reach this level, they should be recognized as very skilled, knowledgeable, whatever. This, IMO would be where a level 8 Commoner would be with max skill points and modifiers dedicated to their specific craft (To relate it to your post). Moderately difficult tasks are not difficult and mistakes are rarely made. When they are it is generally just something that takes more time, rather than causing harm. Difficult and/or rare tasks would be something you'd have roughly equal chance to succeed or fail at.

21-25 - "Grand Master" level. Even difficult tasks/rare or lost knowledge are within you're purview. Every item crafted is a Masterpiece, you know at least some lore that the vast majority of others have no idea about.

26+ - "Legendary". You are one of the foremost in your field, your skill/knowledge is unrivaled.

Now, the issue here is we have items that allow some to 'switch' equipment which can be difficult for DMs to notice. Thus you could have 5 in various skills, but switch a couple rings, maybe a belt and gain a bonus of ~6-12 points. Then argue you're a "Master" in several skills. I personally think it would be a lot better if skill points didn't stack (so only one skill bonus item would actually grant a bonus) and PvE was re-balanced to accommodate skills in the ~40's instead of 70's+... However, in lieu of that, I have had DM's in the past ask what Base Ranks in a skill are (with no items or buffs). I like this in some circumstance since items might enhance your lore skill, but you are still not going to recall something that you never knew in the first place. Using base ranks rather than modified ranks allows for more realistic checks that can be consistent without (as a DM) competing against players who are constantly switching gear to seemingly have amazing skills in everything.

Anyway, all this is just my random thoughts, it would be up to Admins/HDM's and DM staff if they wanted to standardize such a thing. Just like players DMs do have to compete with the engine/mechanics of the games and, frankly with some players who want to utilize mechanics to try and 'win' every situation which isn't really fair. It's not like these players with multiple rings, belts are emoting taking off the items and changing them, much less their boots, armor, cloaks etc. they have made to look the same as each other. This is why establishing base ranks in events is a good idea IMO. It allows you to be recognized for your investment without worrying over a DC 20 being considered 'low' because someone can beat it with items only and no actual investment in a skill. A DC 40 could still be failed by someone with 33 points in a skill if no modifiers are considered. The issue is the way mechanics work in PvE makes it very difficult to quantify 'appropriate' DCs in events.

Hoihe wrote:Right, polymorphing is also something Atria avoids. Worked hard enough for those knife ears to eschew them for power. (plus you can't cast on cue from polymorph).

Just pop out of the shape, cast a spell, and use the shift form feat to get back into the shape. These days the spell does not end there, it lasts for the full duration or until it gets dispelled. Just one Shapechange spell can carry a very long mile today.

One of the Shapechange shapes is an Arboreal Elf, it is a ranged form, but you get to keep your pointy ears. You even get to fight from a distance which makes it a lot safer to shift back and forth into your original form.

You can read more about the polymorphing from here: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Polymorphing

Steve wrote:

Hoihe wrote:Now think about the ridiculous DCs some DMs give (fit for Achilles/Heracles) for tasks that random NPCs do day to day (which they succeed at, otherwise society would fall apart).

Codify the above so that everyone can...

Hoihe, it sounds from your text in this thread and the other one, that you feel you were wronged, and very likely were, in regard to RP-based-on-mechanics you were forced to comply with. And, that has had such a lasting effect upon your understanding of BGTSCC and your Role-play, your options for Role-play, that you're harboring a whole suit case full of attachments that no longer allow you to see a free and unhindered way forward.

Release your attachments, mate.

Furthermore, imho, a Player nor a DM nor the Community involved in game play should expect to codify their Builds and/or mechanics in order to NEVER fail a Difficulty Challenge, or just a difficulty.

That is no longer playing a game, that is fulfilling a script. Games involved skill + chance. Scripts are storytelling, NOT story building, and thus can have an adverse effect.

Which, in your case, it has had.

Are you having any fun anymore, Hoihe?

Think of it this way.

There's Captain Joe, an Airbus First Officer. There's also Mentour Pilot, a Boeing Captain. Then there's Airforceproud95, a general aviation pilot.

What makes the difference in their skill level? They're all talented individuals who mastered a skill few can.

Every commercial airliner has a Captain and a First Officer. A Captain has countless thousands of hours flying both real and simulator, and knows how to land a plane that has a hole in its left wing, with gear failure and broken instrumentation.

Will he always succeed? No, there's a gamble. However, the First Officer (assuming fresh, not a veteran one who is only a year off from his final stripe) has very little chance compared to the Captain's realistic one. The General Aviation dude has absolutely no chance doing it (assuming they do it to get some flight hours in to be hired as a First Officer, and aren't a air show pilot).

A newbie general aviation dude who just got his pilot's licence will panic the moment his Cessna stalls out and enters a flat spin and will splat onto the ground. Meanwhile a WWII ace pilot will remain calm and recover a plane that is missing its entire left wing using some unlikely combination of rudder and ailerons to keep it flying mostly straight.

A chemist who spent 5 years in laboratory isn't going to randomly fail a titration unless they are sick or otherwise absent in attention. The only people who fail titration are those who have no idea what they are doing, and a year eliminates that. (And those with shitty equipment, but that's already been discussed.) Our chemist with 5 years of experience will recognize shitty equipment, and will take steps to counter their influence (or just up and fix them on the spot pro bono).

@Chad said it perfectly. Thank you for finally someone understanding my woes .


@Wukon

Arboreal elves are still not Atria elves!

If you were always fishing for justification you're given a poorly judged DC, you really didn't need to go farther than a simple internet search, then a PM to the DM, CC'd to the HDMs:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm

Anyone can come up with a million anecdotes that justify a point of view, but the real issue here seems clearly that once upon a time, a PC possibly named Hoihe (at the time), was given a stupid high DC erroneously, and the lingering effect on the Player from auto-failing that DC, has exaggerated into a legendary, epic, heroic difficulty, of its own.

Can I offer you a suggestion, Hoihe? If this one time occurance bothers you so much, why not simply Retcon it, and/or seek Official permission to do so? And if it ever happens again, just repeat the process?

Don't you WANT to get over this?!?