Pure Fighter

[Sun Wukong]

I did some testing in game, on my Cavalier/Dragonslayer with Northlander Hewing and Shield Bash. At his current level, he has 3 attacks from BAB. With Northlander Hewing and Shield Bash turned on, he gets two Northlander Hewing attacks and one Shield Bash.

Thus if you are going for Northlander Hewing, then the extra Shield Bash attacks could be really worth it. Not sure if the current state of affairs will persist or not, but even if it gets fixed, it will just mean that you get more mainhand attacks thanks to those extra shield bash attacks.

[ARHicks00]

NO, you get 3 Shield attacks at most. Shield Bash on wiki: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Shield_Bash

So Shield feats are good and NH is a possibility is what I am gathering. Do my skills look good?

[Sun Wukong]

The shield feats will not benefit from Northlander Hewing damage. But extra attacks are extra damage nevertheless. Might not be so much against DR, but in General Shield bash should make it faster to kill things with Sword-and-Board.

As for skills, I assume these:

Tumble: 10
Spellcraft: 16
Open Lock: 16
Taunt: 33 (32)
Heal: 16
Intimitdate: 21
UMD: 16 (15 with 8 bonus points from Spellcraft for 23)
Survival: 5
**Craft Weapon 16
**Craft Armor: 16

I would drop spellcraft to 15 ranks, you do not get anything extra after 15 spell craft. As for synergy bonus, it is just +2 UMD for 5 ranks in spellcraft.

Intimidate could be higher, but it does open up some alternative weekly quest choices as it is.

So yeah, your skills are about as good as they can be.

[ARHicks00]

One last thing...does my strength bonus and enchantmebts apply to my shields? Also does haste add an attack to NH or Shield bash?

[Sun Wukong]

If my memory serves me, both strength modifier and shield armor enchantment add up to the shield bash damage.

Thus you are looking at damage of: 1d3, 1d4, or 1d6 + 'Strength Modifier' + 'Shield Enchantment Bonus' + 'Feats' + 'Potential extra damage on the shields'.

I have come upon some shields with extra fire damage and what not. I have not kept a single one to try one out. I have to change that in the future.


As for Haste, it is a no to Shield Bash. As for Northlander Hewing, it depends. Northlander Hewing cuts your number of attacks to a 2/3. Thus, if you have 2 attacks per round by default and someone casts haste on your character, you are now at 3 attacks and Northlander Hewing will do 2 attacks per round. Without Haste you only get 1 Northlander Hewing attack. Thus, whether haste will give you an extra attack or not, it depends on your current number of attacks.

[ARHicks00]

If my memory serves me, both strength modifier and shield armor enchantment add up to the shield bash damage.

Thus you are looking at damage of: 1d3, 1d4, or 1d6 + 'Strength Modifier' + 'Shield Enchantment Bonus' + 'Feats' + 'Potential extra damage on the shields'.

I have come upon some shields with extra fire damage and what not. I have not kept a single one to try one out. I have to change that in the future.


As for Haste, it is a no to Shield Bash. As for Northlander Hewing, it depends. Northlander Hewing cuts your number of attacks to a 2/3. Thus, if you have 2 attacks per round by default and someone casts haste on your character, you are now at 3 attacks and Northlander Hewing will do 2 attacks per round. Without Haste you only get 1 Northlander Hewing attack. Thus, whether haste will give you an extra attack or not, it depends on your current number of attacks.

Do strength and enchantments affect yout attack bonus for shields?

[Sun Wukong]

I think those do, it would be strange if it wouldn't.

[chad878262]

Biggest issue with Shield bash is it requires 8 feat investment, thus anything that ISN'T a fighter can't afford it. I'm currently rolling a Shield Dwarf F14/R16 and even though that is a lot of feats, it is a struggle to fit them all in. With Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Toughness and Steadfast, that is all of the pre-epic feats (so no PA or NH on this build, but that's fine since he's got sneak attacks for added damage). In fact, one of the shield feats has to eat an epic feat, unfortunately. Basically the build has almost zero open feats, all the picks are important. Thus F30 in't a bad way to go. As a human you get a total of 19 pre-epic feats and 10 Epic feats! Now, even with Shield Bash being insanely expensive feat wise, you probably don't need that many, so if we're optimizing I would likely say F ~16 / WoD10/X4(for evasion) is simply better, even for a feat intensive build. As SW stated, F12 with Divine Champion is better since you continue bonus feats and gain so much more. However, none of this means F30 isn't completely playable.

As to the shield bash mechanics, we'll see how it plays out. I believe EB and STR do apply to AB/Damage as do shield feats (otherwise what's the point?) but it is difficult to confirm because the combat log for shield attacks is a bit different. Personally I see Shield Bash through Shield Slam as 'worth it'. The four feats you have to then purchase in order to get 2 extra attacks I only consider worth it on a sneak attack based build(though to be fair you also get to reduce/eliminate the malus on your attacks, +1 AC, +1 AB to shield attack(s) and +2 damage to shield attack(s)). The Shield attacks can land sneak attacks for extra damage after a shield slam, but other forms of damage boosts such as EDM don't apply. So those extra attacks aren't really worth the four feats and better spent elsewhere. This makes Shield Bashing somewhat unfortunate as I feel it really only works for F14, Rogue (or Phantom!) 16. Phantom is the stronger pick IMO, losing 2 rogue bonus feats at 13/16, but gaining a method of protection or to land additional sneak damage in Ghost Step (16/day is pretty good since you are mostly a sword and board fighter). Losing the 13/16 feat is a big deal as both can be bonus feats (or improved evasion which is pretty nice as well. However, 16 uses per day of essentially HiPS is very strong as well. In the end, either is a good choice, and the only real choices that make the extra shield attacks something to look at.

[Sun Wukong]

Fighter 14/Rogue 16 does not need to get all of the shield feats in my opinion.

Shield Bash, Shield Charge, and Shield Slam are enough.

What you need is the Shield Slam to get those sneak attacks in, and you can combine it with Feint, Knockdown, and Pommel Strike. The extra shield bash attacks seems somewhat redundant to me. In otherwords, one on one, you can almost stop the enemy from fighting back.

[chad878262]

Yes, but the extra shield attacks will land extra sneak attacks when the enemy has been shield slammed, feinted, etc... This makes it worthwhile. Certainly not required, but 2 extra sneak attacks (even at only 8d6) is a pretty good benefit when you are also gaining AC, AB and Damage in the deal.

[ARHicks00]

Can your shields critical hit, though?

[chad878262]

Honestly not sure.

[Sun Wukong]

With side to caution, I would lean towards that they can, but it is something like 20/x2.

[Invoker]

With side to caution, I would lean towards that they can, but it is something like 20/x2.

Yes. My Drow crits his Shield Slam even for 95-96 dmg, with a Tower Shield. Deals slightly more dmg.

[ARHicks00]

With side to caution, I would lean towards that they can, but it is something like 20/x2.

Yes. My Drow crits his Shield Slam even for 95-96 dmg, with a Tower Shield. Deals slightly more dmg.

Well damn