Paladins should be able to choose Eldath (srsly hear me out)

[whatsittoya]

Eldath is a pacifist, and yet she's prepared to fight. Pacifism is about being opposed to violence, but it doesn't necessarily mean standing around and letting people suffer. Even the most devoted pacifist is prepared to fight if necessary, if they give a damn about life. Eldath states explicitly the circumstances under which violence is acceptable for her pacifist babies(yet still not nice).

[Steve]

BTW, I wasn't making a judgment for or against, just presenting a Lore-based umbrella from which an opinion AND a deduction could be made.

Personally, in the FR world, which is just so extremely violent throughout, it would be near impossible to be a strict pacifist, and refuse to fight, even if defending one's self.

Eldath has does preach non-violence, but her followers do engage in defensive warfare when necessary. Right?

Furthermore, my presented quotes were also to sway the conversation away from uber dogmatic Paladin is only X considerations. Take it as you will.

[chad878262]

Not that I care, but a pacifist believes war/ fighting is unjustifiable. This the term implies one will not fight for any reason. It's possible the writers of lore books meant to imply Eldath and his clergy simply avoid fighting, but a pacifist is defined as will not fight, so the is a key issue in the use of that word alongside a warrior.

[whatsittoya]

Which is why we're being internally-consistent with the in-setting use of the term 'pacifist' rather than the real-world use of the term. Eldath's dogma uses the word, while also illustrating the conditions that must first be met before violence becomes acceptable.

[Arn]

So... we're pretty much all in agreement that Eldathyn paladins should be allowable, right?

And yeah, I definitely am NOT saying "paladin is only X." And I am not saying Eldathyns have to perfect pacifists and abstain from fighting in all circumstances (in fact, my quoted source books suggest that they do indeed engage in violence to defend themselves and others).

I think figuring out when to engage in violence (if at all) would be a crucial part of an Eldathyn paladin's RP. Some might never do it, and some might choose to. Really depends on the individual.

As far as I can tell, Eldath herself chooses to withdraw from conflict, but her followers don't always follow that example.

[Atlas]

I never said I had a problem with there being a Bron, Paladin of Eldath, in the lore references that were made. But I would argue that he is level 9, which is incredibly high by the standards of that edition of the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting. A character cannot reach level nine without killing a lot of enemies and going through a lot of campaigns, etc.

I don't like the degree to which people like to skew the 3.5 ed. alternate deity Paladin lore. They are all meant to to regard war as the institution in which they promote good, only to somewhat varying degrees. There is no eastern philosophy written into the lore of the Paladin class, they are more or less depicted as the chivalric knight I referenced in the second quote about valour.

The Temple of Ilmater has some orders of paladins to fight battles against terrible foes, and to defend their holy temples and clergy, and I imagine Eldath would do likewise. The clergies of those temples on the other hand are pacifistic.

The Temples of deities like Torm, Tyr and Helm have the most paladin orders in the 3.5 ed. lore because they are the most concerned with fighting battles against evil etc. paladins of Ilmater and so forth are supposed to be less common occurrences rather than the norm, who have somewhat more esoteric practices, but regardless still must uphold their martial station to do battle with enemies, and their holy vows. And that can create a conflict within such a paladin, when he is sworn to holy vows that can contradict the dogma and practices of the clergy of his temple.

Personally I think this situation as it was written in 3.5 ed. where there were paladins of Sune and all of that is kind of silly, but whatever. In AD&D there were paladins of Tempus the Lord of Battles.


I think this kind of concept does skew the paradigm away from what is the traditional paladin of Torm or Helm or Tyr who acts as Sir Geffen did in the information I provided. And I have definitely seen information on paladins skewed and taken out of context in this fashion before.

Some time ago someone posted a great deal of information about the behaviours of paladins of Tyr who reside within the incredibly lawful good and just and efficient realm of Cormyr, and all of sudden people were taking it out of context to mean that the Paladin should behave as something less than a heroic knight and more of a diplomat who tries to pass bills within any government corrupt or otherwise, in order to promote good. And the paragraph that explicitly mentioned paladins of Torm and Helm beheading slavers and servants of evil in frontier lands was somehow disregarded.


Something like a Fighter that is employed to protect the Clergy of Eldath and their articles of faith sounds more like what you are talking about.

[Arn]

There is no eastern philosophy written into the lore of the Paladin class

Okay, I just wanna say, although I do play a monk who is heavily influenced by eastern philosophy, I promise you all that I do not have an OOC pacifist agenda when it comes to Forgotten Realms lore.

Just gonna say, for one last time, I am not saying paladins are pacifist, and I am not even saying Eldathyns are perfect pacifists.

I just think an Eldathyn paladin would make for interesting RP, and it seems supported by canon lore. That is why I am putting it on the table. Not trying to make any sweeping comments about paladins or Eldathyns or pacifism. I swear.

Okay, just gonna back away slowly now... (Like an Eldathyn? )

[Deathgrowl]

I support your suggestion, Arn. It is soundly based in lore.

[Planehopper]

I like the concept as well. It seems like it would be an interesting character to RP, and to RP with, and it seems supported by lore.

[Hator]

No opposition here either.

[whatsittoya]

The in-setting use of the term pacifism (as it shows up in descriptions) is actually more closely related to the real-world ethos called non-aggression principle. Non-aggressive paladins are a win!

[Archaos]

I think that for a few moments, many people here thought that Eldath is True Neutral, because of the water element and mistaking her for the Water Lord Istishia, which IS True Neutral.

I never said I had a problem with there being a Bron, Paladin of Eldath, in the lore references that were made. But I would argue that he is level 9, which is incredibly high by the standards of that edition of the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting. A character cannot reach level nine without killing a lot of enemies and going through a lot of campaigns, etc.

Just because he's a level 9 character of Eldath, doesn't mean he's been such all his life.
Also in PnP you don't need to murder everything to get XP.
Just resolving the challenge is enough.
Whether you kill all of the goblin camp, or you convince them to stop harassing people and leave gives you the same XP.

ICly, such a character tries to use Diplomacy and other ways to overcome the challenge and using violence only in self-defense of themselves or others.
As Eldath's Clerics and Druids are advised to do.
And they might practice to defend themselves without having to kill others to get practice.

And that can create a conflict within such a Paladin, when he is sworn to holy vows that can contradict the dogma and practices of the clergy of his temple.

For the Paladin, his Code of Conduct and alignment come first, then come the dogma of his deity.
Just because a Paladin follows Helm doesn't mean he stop being Good now and then.
Just because a Paladin follows Chauntea or Sune, doesn't mean he can stop being Lawful now and then.
That's a Cleric or a Fighter/Divine Champion.

Personally I think this situation as it was written in 3.5 ed. where there were Paladins of Sune and all of that is kind of silly, but whatever. In AD&D there were Paladins of Tempus the Lord of Battles, which made a lot more sense as opposed to something like Eldath.

The concept of a Paladin of Sune isn't silly at all. It was made to reflect the classic romantic knights that are chivalrous and defending the concept of romantic love in general.
Also Paladins of Sune act as loyal temple guardians or chivalrous knights, which fit both their Lawful and Good alignment

Well, in ADnD you also had Lawful Good Dwarf Druids and such (there are weird exceptions in ADnD when it comes to NPCs.)
But in the rules you were only allowed to be True Neutral Human or Half-Elf.
Though there were some Druid kits in the Complete Druid Handbook that allowed elves to be Druids.
ADnD was kind of a mess when it came to rules. We all know that.

Anyway, just because you're a warrior, doesn't mean you cannot promote pacifism.
Clerics and Druids are kind of warriors as well. They both know how to fight, use weapons and armor.

[chad878262]

In 1e you didn't gain levels fighting monsters. XP was gained by surviving the dungeon and exiting with as much treasure as possible. 1XP per GP value. Fighting monsters in 1e was a quick way to be dead... the combat was far less forgiving than later editions. 1e was more about avoiding combat and traps while trying to find magic items and gold.

[Deathgrowl]

In any edition, XP is up to the DM anyways, and it comes from handling a situation in any way. You can sneak past the guards, you can fight the guards (and you can choose to do so with non-lethal damage!), you can persuade your way past through diplomacy, intimidation or bluff.

Either way, you're gaining experience.

Of course, you have to use your brains a little bit in this. Base Attack Bonus is a reference to how well someone is trained martially. So a fighter5/paladin4 has a lot of actual fighting training compared to a wizard9. Or a fighter or paladin of level 1, for that matter. We're talking orders of magnitude in training here.

EDIT:
Also, no one ever decides out of no where to become a paladin. This is pointed out fairly early in the PHB description of the class. It's a calling. They can choose to not answer the calling, of course, but by choosing to answer it, they have decided to become a holy warrior. They are aware at this point that being a paladin is fundamentally different from being a cloth wearing scholar of the faith. They know that this is a path for someone bearing arms and armour in defense of their faith.

I've never actually seen anyone RPing declining that call and exploring what that might mean for the character's development. Might be interesting.

[Atlas]

Just because he's a level 9 character of Eldath, doesn't mean he's been such all his life.Also in PnP you don't need to murder everything to get XP. Just resolving the challenge is enough.Whether you kill all of the goblin camp, or you convince them to stop harassing people and leave gives you the same XP.ICly, such a character tries to use Diplomacy and other ways to overcome the challenge and using violence only in self-defense of themselves or others.As Eldath's Clerics and Druids are advised to do.And they might practice to defend themselves without having to kill others to get practice.

The Paladin can and should make a very good diplomat and diplomacy is one of his class skills even, but that is only one facet of his medieval aristocratic theme that should not outweigh his core function.

And a campaign where you can avoid all combat encounters is biased, but that is up to the subjective beliefs of the people playing I suppose.

For the Paladin, his Code of Conduct and alignment come first, then come the dogma of his deity.Just because a Paladin follows Helm doesn't mean he stop being Good now and then.Just because a Paladin follows Chauntea or Sune, doesn't mean he can stop being Lawful now and then.That's a Cleric or a Fighter/Divine Champion.

You have misrepresented what I wrote. I said the Paladin is not supposed to compromise his integral function just because the deity of worship is Sune or Ilmater. I was referring to the personal or emotional struggle that can occur within one whose deity etc is less than the traditional image of the Paladin of the setting. Nonetheless it should remain within and not have a negative affect on the outcome of his actions. A Paladin of Torm would not have these emotional conflicts because his deity is very much the image of the noble Knight.

There are other factors also, such as culture and background. Realms such as Cormyr and Tethyr, Impiltur etc, that are more or less traditional feudal settings are better backdrops for the Paladin as opposed to others that are different culturally.

The concept of a Paladin of Sune isn't silly at all. It was made to reflect the classic romantic knights that are chivalrous and defending the concept of romantic love in general.

The goddess Sune is something akin to the Greek goddess Aphrodite, so it is pretty silly. Sune is definitely not the only ill fit, but whatever. The chivalrous knight is written as either devoted to his temple or devoted in the classical romantic sense, not through hedonism or polygamy.

Anyway, just because you're a warrior, doesn't mean you cannot promote pacifism.Clerics and Druids are kind of warriors as well. They both know how to fight, use weapons and armor.

For a Paladin 'promoting' pacifism while regularly upholding your martial skill in battle would create an ethical dilemma when it is written into the very tenets you are sworn to follow to inspire others to acts of good through valour and heroism on the battlefield.

Clerics and Druids are kind of warriors as well. They both know how to fight, use weapons and armor.

Those classes were not designed as warriors actually, not at all. A Cleric can definitely be militant and has access to heavy armour to begin with, but should have to gain martial training through subverting his feat selections and/or multiclassing, but otherwise he was not supposed to be a skilled warrior the way a Paladin is supposed to be. A Druid was not supposed to be a warrior either but instead a kind of nature wizard, and should need to do the same in order to gain martial abilities.



Regardless I have had enough of this.