The Crusader Paladin Kit Is Not Good Enough

[RedLancer]

Every paladin kit not named Crusader makes a better two-handed build. Your standard EDM Paladin is a better two-handed build. A standard STR paladin is a better two-handed build. An EDM Divinate is a better two-handed build. A STR Cavalier is a better two-handed build.

We have already described how the numerical boosts the Crusader gains are eclipsed by the Paladin spellbook while still leaving 4 levels free for multiclassing with full caster level. Every paladin kit with spellcasting is a better two-handed paladin than a Crusader.

Crusader
Epic Weapon Focus: +4 AB
Crusader Strike: +3 dmg
Holy Sword: +2d6
AC: +6 (shield)

Any other Paladin
Bless, Aid, Righteous Fury: +4 AB (we'll assume that the Crusader has a Bull's Strength equivalent)
Righteous Fury: +3 dmg (via +4 STR, 2-handed weapon)
Holy Sword: +2d6 (spell-slot reliant)
AC: +6 (Silverbeard, Shield wand)

Spells: Charisma buffs (saves, Divine Might/Shield, Lay on Hands, Turning), Prot: Evil, Weapon of the Deity, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Revenance, damage buffs, and more

Plus the freedom to dip 4 levels into something with, say, Tumble, which actually moves AC completely in favor of the non-Crusader.


Submit any build you like; the kits all get the same number of feats to choose. Anything the Crusader can build, the non-Crusader can build with the advantage of superior raw numbers and utility.

[mrm3ntalist]

Garbage...

http://nwn2db.com/build/?297593

The numbers below are ALL the time. No dispells, no duration limits, no time to buff. Click and ready to go

resist desease = NH

resist poison = one weapon

AC :10 + 8Mith +3Dex +1Tumble +1Oneweapon +1LoH + +6ICE + 6Crusader +4ArmorEB +4NAtural +4Deflection +4Dodge = 52AC (-2 NH )

AB: 45 + 4STR(Item?) + 5EB Holy sword - 6ICE = 48 AB (-2NH)

Damage: 18STR +12NH +12(Greatsword) + 5EB +2d6Holyweapon = 53.5~ Average + Weapon extra damage. (4 attacks)

You guys want higher numbers than those? With no buffs?

[metaquad4]

Garbage...

http://nwn2db.com/build/?297593

The numbers below are ALL the time. No dispells, no duration limits, no time to buff. Click and ready to go

resist desease = NH

resist poison = one weapon

AC :10 + 8Mith +3Dex +1Tumble +1Oneweapon +1LoH + +6ICE + 6Crusader +4ArmorEB +4NAtural +4Deflection +4Dodge = 52AC (-2 NH )

AB: 45 + 4STR(Item?) + 5EB Holy sword - 6ICE = 48 AB (-2NH)

Damage: 18STR +12NH +12(Greatsword) + 5EB +2d6Holyweapon = 53.5~ Average + Weapon extra damage. (4 attacks)

You guys want higher numbers than those? With no buffs?

All the time is pretty irrelevant. Your buffs last as long as you need them to before you rest (and even if you didn't have to rest, you'd be waiting for your party to rest so it would be a moot point). And if you keep up your CL, you won't be dispelled. You don't need none-buff reliance, it doesn't offer you much.

Your AC is 1 higher, and your AB is 3 higher than mine. I could slot in holy sword and NH without any real sacrifice, boosting damage output by a long shot along the way. NH can go in instead of disarm without any real worry.

Your damage is 10 below mine (20 below for clickies) with a far worse crit rate (worse damage/round over-all by a fairly long shot). If I put in NH and Holy Sword instead of say, Blessed Strike, the damage on the build I proposed would spike up. 50 is the bare-bones for a 2 handing build, it isn't anything particularly special in that context.

Also, do paladin kits stack with paladin levels to determine epic bonus feats?
1) If no, you have 3 feats too many in the epics.
2) If yes, mine can come out with -1 AB, +1 AC, and +2 damage.

I wouldn't recommend the class to anyone in its current state. There are better options for any aspect it can cover.

[Steve]

I have built a Crusader that reaches:

Crusader Paladin Kit on BGTSCC

Dodge feat = One Weapon custom Feat

AC:
14 + 2 DEX (w/ +3 DEX) + 8 mith plate + 4 AC + 6 Crusader shield defense + 4 natural + 4 deflection + 4 dodge +1 One Weapon dodge AC = 47 (+2 IMA wand = 48; +7 Divine Shield = 56)

AB:
35 + 2 (w/ +3 STR) + 4 Epic Weapon Focus (via Crusador 21) + 5 holy sword = 46 (40 w/ IPA; +4 Gr. Heroism pot = 44)

DMG:
1d10 katana + 10 STR (1.5 * 7 w/ +3 STR) + 5 Holy Sword = 20 avg. (+ 12 IPA + 2d6 vs Evil (holy sword) + 3 WIS (Crusador bonus w/ +3 WIS item +14 EDM (for 14 rnds ) = 55

I think those are good numbers! But any improvements are also welcome!

[mrm3ntalist]

Also, do paladin kits stack with paladin levels to determine epic bonus feats?
1) If no, you have 3 feats too many in the epics.
2) If yes, mine can come out with -1 AB, +1 AC, and +2 damage.

You get the bonus feats

Duration is very important unless you fight goblins. Especially for rangers and paladins with 3-3-3-3 + WIS spells for each level. You simply dont have enough spell slots for the long run.

The difference for example is when you go to fight the Balor, then you have nothing left for the boss in the camp. I wont mention the DM events... "DM can we rest now?". If you rely so much on the spell book, you will end up sitting in the back with the casters, while crusaders, rangers, barbarians will be up front kicking @ss and taking names.

Cavalier is fast, it has the numbers and works nicely. Easier to play than any other kit or even the vanilla paladin - when 2 handed.

[RedLancer]

Let's take mrm3ntalist's build. Sub Iron Will for Blind Fight, Practiced Spellcaster for One Weapon. We're building Paladin 26 / Anointed Knight 4 (AK gives Blind Fight).

Starting Stats
17 (32 base [Great STR x8], 40 with buffs)
13
12
13
11
10

AC :10 + 8Mith +3Dex +1LoH +6ICE +4ArmorEB +4NAtural +4Deflection +4Dodge +2Silverbeard +4ShieldWand +3Tumble = 53 AC (v. 52)

AB: 30 (base) + 15 (STR) + 5 (Weapon Enhance) + 2 (Bless/Aid) = 52 (v. 52)
Also, you have the Crusader AB 2 points higher than it should be; you'll net 2 ab from a Bull's Strength potion, not 4). They come out to equal AB. We could also choose Epic Prowess instead of Improved Knockdown to come out ahead.

Damage: 22 (STR) + 12 (greatsword) + 5 (EB) + ~7 (Holy Sword) + 15 (NH) = 61, 4 attacks

The standard paladin with Anointed Knight has more AC, more damage (or equal damage without Holy Sword), and equivalent attack bonus, plus the rest of the spell book, plus the saves bonuses from Charisma buff spells and maximum Spellcraft, plus Toughness.

Crusader is an option to play a less powerful two-handed paladin. I'm tired of the spell slots / duration argument; it's a niche consideration that rarely affects anyone's actual play. "Hypothetically, if you're in a DM event ..." the standard paladin is still a superior two-handed combatant.

[Steve]

I choose Crusader specifically because it gets great numbers AND I DON'T HAVE TO CONSTANTLY BUFF MY TOON, nor do I have to rely on raging or dancing like Barb/Dervish builds.

My only real gripe with Crusader is that I think its Holy Sword power should be better spread through the levels, and not something that only comes "online" at Lvl 14, but that actually is from Level 1 all the way through to 29.

That said, I"m all for making it more powerful! Just to spite M3nt. Hi M3nt!!!

What I'd really like, simply in order to support OPTIONS is for Crusader to be =>26 levels, so that a bit of multiclassing could be afforded.

But if you really want to put an arse rocket in play here, then yeah, give Crusader Protection from Alignment SLA and Death Ward SLA, and it'll scream through Server content with ease.

Who doesn't like ease, right?!?

[mrm3ntalist]

Redlancer, if you cant see the difference in those builds and how you go about it, then there is no point forward.

You add wands of shield in the equation. I Crusader can use items as well, cant he? There are wands of Deathward, items with bless, aim etc. That will degenerate the comparison to that no character can die because you can use heal potions all the time...

The problems with your two hadner is that it has an expiration date. When Holy weapon expirs, when the short term buffs expire and when your long term buffs expire. A Weapon and shield paladin does not mind so much, because it has more sustain, mostly in turms of higher AC without buffs. So he can tank, until it is time to buff. Durations do matter when you play. It is not the vanilla version of the game where you can persist low level spells. And they are taken seriously into consideration. Many veteran players, after having played most builds available, they end up with a non casting one, for that exact reason.

If durations dont matter like you say, there is nothing stopping a paladin to multiclass with dervish for example for +3AC ( which will be reconciled with the loss of shield AC ), +5AB/DAmage and 2d6 damage ( durations dont matter right ). Or weapon master. Or even Divine champion.

Anyway, the end of the story is that the crusader kit is more than fine. Steve's suggestion about a better progression of the Holy Sword is something we considered but was never implemented and it is something that could help, especially with multiclassing. Other than that, there is no reason to give anything more to crusaders and even you, cant clearly give a better 2 hander paladin version.

[RedLancer]

You add wands of shield in the equation.

You are allowing for Bull's Strength in the Crusader build. If we eliminate consumables altogether, the numbers will still, overall, favor the non-Crusader.

the short term buffs expire and when your long term buffs expire.

We're talking 30 minutes for the majority of the short-term buffs (60 if we're a Divinate). This is a long time given the pace at which parties can clear content and resting provisions.

A Weapon and shield paladin does not mind so much, because it has more sustain, mostly in terms of higher AC without buffs.

The standard paladin can equip a shield if this becomes a concern. In fact, it seems strange to be building a two-handed combatant and relying on Combat Expertise for AC when we could be equipping a shield for AC and using Power Attack for a damage boost.

If durations dont matter like you say, there is nothing stopping a paladin to multiclass with dervish for example for +3AC ( which will be reconciled with the loss of shield AC ), +5AB/DAmage and 2d6 damage ( durations dont matter right ).

What I said was ...

I'm tired of the spell slots / duration argument; it's a niche consideration that rarely affects anyone's actual play.

This does not say, "Durations don't matter." Spell durations are a niche consideration for PCs with CL30. This is understood and has been emphasized. This conversation will be more useful if we don't set up straw men. I know you understand the difference between 20 CL buffs that will be dispelled and 30 CL buffs that will not.

[mrm3ntalist]

ou are allowing for Bull's Strength in the Crusader build. If we eliminate consumables altogether, the numbers will still, overall, favor the non-Crusader.

Why you are keep talking about bulls potions? +4Ability items drop ( two days ago a +4WIS dropped for me... on a katana ). Soon enough there will be a +4STR item in an epic shop as well.

The standard paladin can equip a shield if this becomes a concern. In fact, it seems strange to be building a two-handed combatant and relying on Combat Expertise for AC when we could be equipping a shield for AC and using Power Attack for a damage boost.

Not a two hander

We're talking 30 minutes for the majority of the short-term buffs (60 if we're a Divinate). This is a long time given the pace at which parties can clear content and resting provisions.

Wait... 30mins... all this time you were talking about non extended spells??? And you actually take them in consideration? Have you played a paladin or a ranger on this server? The Holy sword will last 3 mins.... And you take it into account, like it is something permanent. Flame weapon from a wand, lasts as long, why dont you add that to your numbers as well???

With all that aside, the difference the crusader and the builds you posted is that the crusader can keep these number for EVER

[RedLancer]

Wait... 30mins... all this time you were talking about non extended spells??? And you actually take them in consideration? Have you played a paladin or a ranger on this server?

Yes, yes, and yes. And if we're allowing for optimized equipment, now we're allowing for spell slot gear.

Not a two hander

It is every time it doesn't equip a shield. This goes back to the question of emphasizing Combat Expertise in the first place. If a two-handed combatant is sacrificing attack bonus, it should be for damage, not AC. If AC is a concern, you equip a shield to get AC without reducing the number of times you hit the enemy.

With all that aside, the difference the crusader and the builds you posted is that the crusader can keep these number for EVER

We don't disagree that the Crusader's abilities don't have a limiting duration. What we disagree on is how important "forever" is given the time needed to clear a dungeon and the allowance for resting.

[mrm3ntalist]

I think you are reading a different discussion. We speak of a kit which is explicit for two handers and how it(the kit) improves a style (2hadned) for the specific class( paladin). Now you come here and tell us about shield... If that is your intention, the crusader kit is not for that reason. The crusader kits gives bonuses to 2 hander paladins and takes something else ( spellcasting). The result is that 2 hander paladins with the kit, are more powerful than two hander paladins without the kit. That is what the kit aims to do and does it.

Other than that, I imagine paladin or ranger is not your main character, right?

[Young Werther]

A place like vault of the dead there's something like 7 bosses and 3 different areas to load into and out and no resting, no teleporting throughout. With a small party of 2 it can be tough to clear without running out of spells. All the bosses drop loot bags so it's fun to do with small parties. Makes sense why you wouldn't want to rely on resting and short durations.

[electric mayhem]

Crusaders key elements are broken.

Holy Sword SLA bugs out after a few simultaneous casts and becomes uncastable. (reported btw).

Also, you can still prep the Feat attack style of spells, and use those when the feats dragged to your hotbar. By intention or not, i'm unsure.
All other spells, yep, disabled as designed.

It's a one trick pony class.
Yep, Holy sword is awesome... when it works.
All other numbers are average to other classes, nothing outstanding. All those quoting high AC/AB... not everyone has access to FULL stat epic gear.
Cater to the crowd, not the exceptions.

[mrm3ntalist]

All other numbers are average to other classes, nothing outstanding. All those quoting high AC/AB... not everyone has access to FULL stat epic gear.
Cater to the crowd, not the exceptions.

Which other 2hander builds get similar stats? I am certain there will be some but not many.

What full stat epic gear is not available to you? Are you kidding me? Is there something missing?