Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Appraise also has to be considered. Increasing NPC merchant prices on potions doesn't really help Master Alchemists so much as create more of a market for max appraise PC's. Instead of selling stacks of heal pots and heroism pots and invisibility pots on Mudd's they will also sell stacks of Shield pots and Mage Armor pots and Barkskin pots, for example. Appraise doesn't help lower the prices of Master Alchemist so the PCs that build for max appraise will always be able to undercut the market, should the NPC prices be increased.

perhaps, but that has issues on the economy more so than increasing npc prices

right now UMD is and has been the best gold sink on the server for the past 9-10 years, the only thing that will shadow it will be crafting, period

the general intent with the economy is to provide things for people to actually spend gold on that they -want- to spend gold on, therefore removing gold from the player

decreasing player costs only allows people to make for cheap and sell high, pulling in more gold which will reinflate the economy

in theory, increasing npc prices will drive people to go to whats available instead of what is cheap and would force players to be reasonable on their selling prices

would new people suffer? no because what penalties do new people have to worry about? you die and lose 100-1000xp? that is regained fairly easily? verses someone losing 2000-2900xp that is not that easy to get back

if anything new people / low levels will own the supply market for things people dont wanna go to low level areas to farm themselves (assuming of course crafting becomes a thing )

but increasing prices overall would not be as bad as decreasing them

chad878262 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:25 pm Appraise also has to be considered. Increasing NPC merchant prices on potions doesn't really help Master Alchemists so much as create more of a market for max appraise PC's. Instead of selling stacks of heal pots and heroism pots and invisibility pots on Mudd's they will also sell stacks of Shield pots and Mage Armor pots and Barkskin pots, for example. Appraise doesn't help lower the prices of Master Alchemist so the PCs that build for max appraise will always be able to undercut the market, should the NPC prices be increased.

i suppose? tho if i remember right npc buy and sell values are independent of each other

and the auction place, idk

Blackman D wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:31 pm perhaps, but that has issues on the economy more so than increasing npc prices

right now UMD is and has been the best gold sink on the server for the past 9-10 years, the only thing that will shadow it will be crafting, period

the general intent with the economy is to provide things for people to actually spend gold on that they -want- to spend gold on, therefore removing gold from the player

decreasing player costs only allows people to make for cheap and sell high, pulling in more gold which will reinflate the economy

in theory, increasing npc prices will drive people to go to whats available instead of what is cheap and would force players to be reasonable on their selling prices

would new people suffer? no because what penalties do new people have to worry about? you die and lose 100-1000xp? that is regained fairly easily? verses someone losing 2000-2900xp that is not that easy to get back

if anything new people / low levels will own the supply market for things people dont wanna go to low level areas to farm themselves (assuming of course crafting becomes a thing )

but increasing prices overall would not be as bad as decreasing them

Alot to decompress here. First, UMD is class spefic and a skill investment. If we want to reduce the amount of UMD ussage then look for means to make other skills useful.

Item creation feats as money sinks: That is fine, except that it requires much more character investment in terms of skills and feats and even levels to make potions than it does wands, and should be considered more than a cheap means of gold disposal. As some one who makes potions i garentee you that the gold sink of potions is extremely low. Maybe in a week about 40k is spent on crafted potions - the cost of bottles and including crafting cost. where i have seen loot drops sell for over 120k in the course of a weeks worth of looting. so potions already do not contribute to the gold sink let alone us having to be concerned with losing it.

Now lets look at the options of lowering alchemist costs and their effects on the economy. Option one, prices stay the same, profit margin increases. Well if prices stay the same then people will go for cheaper sources such as npcs any ways. Option two, prices drop: more potions will be sold and limited by rest timers primarily. Gold is still used in their creation and hence still a gold sink.

The effects on new characters. A non power build character can and often do struggle to make any exp let alone 3k an hour. In fact the only character i have ever played that could make 3k an hour was power built. Take for instance any wizard. By themselves a wizard will do well until level 3 because of coup de grace. After that, no matter how they are built, unless they are gish, they will not be able to make 3k an hour solo and will die often from insane trap dmg, or the 4 20's that mobs roll naturally. And what about un optimized builds? or RP builds? Your best bet is to find a group or just level through rp exp. The problem with saying "well just get a group" is they don't exist at all times on all days for every time zone throughout all level ranges and can't really be relied on, its more of a bonus to have a group than a requirement.

As for your last point, i don't really understand what you are trying to say.

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:47 pm First, UMD is class spefic

no its not, anyone can cross class up to 15 ranks and it only takes 10 to use wands and 12? to emulate items, well within everyone's reach regardless of cha

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:47 pm If we want to reduce the amount of UMD ussage then look for means to make other skills useful.

they couldnt reduce it even if they wanted to, and thats not the point

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:47 pm Item creation feats as money sinks: That is fine, except that it requires much more character investment in terms of skills and feats and even levels to make potions than it does wands, and should be considered more than a cheap means of gold disposal. As some one who makes potions i garentee you that the gold sink of potions is extremely low. Maybe in a week about 40k is spent on crafted potions - the cost of bottles and including crafting cost. where i have seen loot drops sell for over 120k in the course of a weeks worth of looting. so potions already do not contribute to the gold sink let alone us having to be concerned with losing it.

maybe for master alchemist, but that is not the case for normal brew potions (as far as requiring more than wands) and if im not mistaken MA prices should have been lowered once already -- but of course potions are not a gold sink, they are one of the cheaper items to make and require no UMD but also require you get 50 potions compared to getting 1 wand with 50 charges if you are trying to compare expenses (which are still less), its simply not as desired unless you dont want to put the 10 pts into UMD to use wands

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:47 pm Option one, prices stay the same, profit margin increases. Well if prices stay the same then people will go for cheaper sources such as npcs any ways.

but the problem isnt with potion prices, they are already cheap, the problem is that npc prices are -too- cheap, which can be adjusted

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:47 pm The effects on new characters. A non power build character can and often do struggle to make any exp let alone 3k an hour. In fact the only character i have ever played that could make 3k an hour was power built. Take for instance any wizard. By themselves a wizard will do well until level 3 because of coup de grace. After that, no matter how they are built, unless they are gish, they will not be able to make 3k an hour solo and will die often from insane trap dmg, or the 4 20's that mobs roll naturally. And what about un optimized builds? or RP builds? Your best bet is to find a group or just level through rp exp. The problem with saying "well just get a group" is they don't exist at all times on all days for every time zone throughout all level ranges and can't really be relied on, its more of a bonus to have a group than a requirement.

putting a value on how much one makes per hour is a bit arbitrary, you make as much as you are willing to put in or are able to put in, that doesnt change the fact that xp per kill is higher at lower levels than higher levels making it easier to get xp back from death which shit happens regardless of the build -- unless you are a rogue bc everyone who has rolled rogues from level 1 knows they suck, ive done it 3 times, never again

but yes i agree with the group thing and dont really like how things now kinda force you to group to survive, but here we are

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:47 pm As for your last point, i don't really understand what you are trying to say

what i mean is that lowering prices required to make something does not lower the price people sell them at, supply and demand remains in affect regardless, you would only be enabling more profit to be made from it and thus more gold kept instead of removed; whereas increasing npc costs would eliminate npcs as "competition" because they are no longer undercutting players, they would simply be convenience for those who play when player crafters are not about, instead of people going out of their way to get a cheaper deal

How are potion prices "cheap" I play a master alchemist with the cost reduction, 250 gold for cure moderate wounds potion, 1200 for sending 600 for heroism..I mean every single potion is very expensive compared to the average loot acquired by non-camping/loot grinding players.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:46 am no its not, anyone can cross class up to 15 ranks and it only takes 10 to use wands and 12? to emulate items, well within everyone's reach regardless of cha

For a mere 30 skill rank investment. For most RP characters UMD doesn't fall on the radar.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:46 am they couldnt reduce it even if they wanted to, and thats not the point

Why not? Why couldn't we add more reasons for people to take social skills instead of mechanical subsidies?

Blackman D wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:46 am maybe for master alchemist, but that is not the case for normal brew potions (as far as requiring more than wands) and if im not mistaken MA prices should have been lowered once already -- but of course potions are not a gold sink, they are one of the cheaper items to make and require no UMD but also require you get 50 potions compared to getting 1 wand with 50 charges if you are trying to compare expenses (which are still less), its simply not as desired unless you dont want to put the 10 pts into UMD to use wands

Then why did you bring it up? The conversation was on potions and you said we needed the gold sink. In either case, potions can be a good gold sink if they are priced to the point that actual players might actually be interested in buying them from MA or for MA to brew them in bulk.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:46 am but the problem isnt with potion prices, they are already cheap, the problem is that npc prices are -too- cheap, which can be adjusted

Explain too cheap? lets take the best selling potion of mine, improved mage armor. 600 is the base cost + 7 for the bottle. For 9 hours of +3-4 ac which ends on rest and can be dispelled with lesser dispel. Lets say some one wants to use that for running through an adventure going through maybe 3-4 different mob zones. That is around 2-3k for a less than 10% boost to ac. Or how about cure moderate wounds again, 250 a bottle + 7 for the bottle to heal an average of 18 dmg. Or you could get healing kits that can heal upwards of 60 on average for 50 gp and can be used on other people. These aren't base brew potion prices these are at the 70% cost prices that comes with a 5 level investment. I don't think anyone brews potions without MA.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:46 am putting a value on how much one makes per hour is a bit arbitrary, you make as much as you are willing to put in or are able to put in, that doesn't change the fact that xp per kill is higher at lower levels than higher levels making it easier to get xp back from death which (#2) happens regardless of the build -- unless you are a rogue bc everyone who has rolled rogues from level 1 knows they suck, ive done it 3 times, never again

but yes i agree with the group thing and dont really like how things now kinda force you to group to survive, but here we are

3k / hour came from a different post where people where talking about how useful the bio-reward was in retrospect to average exp gain. But i always disagreed with that average as I never seen it myself. No, new characters do not on average make more exp than high level characters, the exp scales evenly but low levels require less to level as its a non-linear increase in the exp required to level per level. Dying at low levels is substantially easier than at high levels due to the rolling scew and low hp. For example, the average roll of a monster is 16 in this mod with average damage ranging from 60-70%. That is fine at high levels when you have +3 gear but at low levels it means you will typically always get hit unless you use potions. For most characters, taking 12-16 dmg in a round is enough to kill them at level 2.

A list of classes that are ineffective at level 1-5 (rogue, bard, wizard, sorcerer, phantom, dc based cleric, monk). Typically low starting ac that takes a while to scale with low hp.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:46 am what i mean is that lowering prices required to make something does not lower the price people sell them at, supply and demand remains in affect regardless, you would only be enabling more profit to be made from it and thus more gold kept instead of removed; whereas increasing npc costs would eliminate npcs as "competition" because they are no longer undercutting players, they would simply be convenience for those who play when player crafters are not about, instead of people going out of their way to get a cheaper deal

S&D curves are not that simple. The problem is S&D are codependant on each other. If you increase cost with an infinite supply demand will fall. There isn't a limit as to supply in D&D as there are npcs of infinite supply. By reducing the cost, you can increase supply AND demand up to a certain maxima by reducing the dependance on the infinite suppliers. The only thing that will come from raising potion prices of npcs is that people won't ever use potions and there will be an increase in UMD and an increase in supply for wands from mid-high level characters while low level characters will struggle to make it out of the low level range and will likely quit or power build.

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:11 pm How are potion prices "cheap" I play a master alchemist with the cost reduction, 250 gold for cure moderate wounds potion, 1200 for sending 600 for heroism..I mean every single potion is very expensive compared to the average loot acquired by non-camping/loot grinding players.

the constant for potions is only 50g, if you do a high variables you are going to have high expenses, and with MA you are doing it with what a 30% reduction already, how is it not cheap?

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:11 pm For a mere 30 skill rank investment. For most RP characters UMD doesn't fall on the radar.

and there is nothing wrong with that, no one forces anyone to take UMD or use magic... aside from the difficulty of current content

if RPers dont wanna use UMD and are too poor to buy magic stuff then they can still rp their way up in levels, the rp xp thing was added for them so its not like they are missing out on xp

does it suck? yea sure its pretty annoying but options there are limited if you want a rp toon, i have quite a few so yea i know how it goes, if you are a rp toon then you rp or you get help or stick to easy quest grinding, they have ways to level so it doesnt exactly justify changing prices for anything

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:11 pm Then why did you bring it up? The conversation was on potions and you said we needed the gold sink. In either case, potions can be a good gold sink if they are priced to the point that actual players might actually be interested in buying them from MA or for MA to brew them in bulk.

maybe, tho i doubt it, potions have too much going against them in terms of convenience which is why they are not desired and why they are not a gold sink

primary issue probably being potions only stack in 10s which means they take up too much space carrying in bulk -- then you have the issue of weight, a potion is what? 0.1 lbs? which means 10 is 1 lb, so 50 is 5 lbs, may not seem like a lot until you compare 5 lbs for 50 potions to 1 lb for a wand with 50 uses, low str toons are not going to be able to carry a lot of potions, its the same issue healers kit face to low str except they are worse at 1 lb per kit so 10 lbs per stack

low str toons are going to get the lighter weight option to heal with, and high str toons are use gonna get a bunch of healers kits because they are the better option to anything even if you have 0 heal skill

its not just an issue with price which is why changing the price is unlikely to actually help when you consider other factors, you would have to change the weight which is a no, they are already .1 you cant go any lower

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:11 pm Why not? Why couldn't we add more reasons for people to take social skills instead of mechanical subsidies?

there is nothing wrong with taking social skills, tho one of the worse things that probably happened was expanding skills so much because its not as if anyone can take them aside from the classes that already have more skill points than they know what to do with... but again, not the point, i simply meant it would have no effect on UMD usage because it has already been tried and did nothing

content it was drives UMD usage, you would have to reduce the difficulty back to like 9 years ago when you didnt need UMD or magic to get to high levels, but good luck with that

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:11 pm Explain too cheap? lets take the best selling potion of mine, improved mage armor. 600 is the base cost + 7 for the bottle. For 9 hours of +3-4 ac which ends on rest and can be dispelled with lesser dispel. Lets say some one wants to use that for running through an adventure going through maybe 3-4 different mob zones. That is around 2-3k for a less than 10% boost to ac. Or how about cure moderate wounds again, 250 a bottle + 7 for the bottle to heal an average of 18 dmg. Or you could get healing kits that can heal upwards of 60 on average for 50 gp and can be used on other people. These aren't base brew potion prices these are at the 70% cost prices that comes with a 5 level investment. I don't think anyone brews potions without MA.

the amount it cost to brew a potion of say cure critical, the npcs sell the same potion for like a fraction of that cost yes? how is that not too cheap?

and yea i brew without MA... because it costs next to nothing, MA is only a 30% discount its not some game changer especially for costing 5 levels

but thats what happens when rp classes are added... MA is no exception, it is just another rp class it just has a -slight- mechanical use to it, but nothing that breaks the bank which is why it went in -- its for those that want to rp well, an master alchemist, my main right now is a wizard and she is also an alchemist among other things, she has the ranks in the skill and brew potion, thats all it takes

we could drop MA cost reduction to 50% and i still would never take it

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:11 pm 3k / hour came from a different post where people where talking about how useful the bio-reward was in retrospect to average exp gain. But i always disagreed with that average as I never seen it myself. No, new characters do not on average make more exp than high level characters, the exp scales evenly but low levels require less to level as its a non-linear increase in the exp required to level per level. Dying at low levels is substantially easier than at high levels due to the rolling scew and low hp. For example, the average roll of a monster is 16 in this mod with average damage ranging from 60-70%. That is fine at high levels when you have +3 gear but at low levels it means you will typically always get hit unless you use potions. For most characters, taking 12-16 dmg in a round is enough to kill them at level 2.

A list of classes that are ineffective at level 1-5 (rogue, bard, wizard, sorcerer, phantom, dc based cleric, monk). Typically low starting ac that takes a while to scale with low hp.

oh ive seen it, i use to do it, but again you get out what you put in and i know people who would grind more than that but it gets old, especially with a lot of the changes since from back when i leveled most of mine

but that particular bit we seem to agree on

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:11 pm S&D curves are not that simple. The problem is S&D are codependant on each other. If you increase cost with an infinite supply demand will fall. There isn't a limit as to supply in D&D as there are npcs of infinite supply. By reducing the cost, you can increase supply AND demand up to a certain maxima by reducing the dependance on the infinite suppliers. The only thing that will come from raising potion prices of npcs is that people won't ever use potions and there will be an increase in UMD and an increase in supply for wands from mid-high level characters while low level characters will struggle to make it out of the low level range and will likely quit or power build.

you are right, it isnt so straight forward, its just a theory craft, however you are a bit wrong with the supply of npcs, not everything is infinite

basic things are infinite, and its probably those things that are giving you issues because people play when there are no friends on and when player merchants are not about, so they need to be able to get supplies from somewhere - cant really change that and have all the merchants be like "sorry we outta healer kits yo" as funny as it would be

and certain conflicts of interest have been completely pulled from npcs

so dont take this as me being completely against doing anything to MA but asking to change prices is dangerous territory to be trending in, especially when the more reasonable option -is- increasing npc prices because they dont follow any rules

when you have two conflicting things and one is going by the rules and the other isnt... you change the one that isnt following the rules and go from there

would it be user friendly? probably not but it would be more fair and thats what you are asking for essentially

if npc prices were made to match the pricing rule you would then also have to add a bit more for charging services (for certain businesses) which would make MA the cheaper choice pending on the MA's service fee

Blackman D wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:32 am the constant for potions is only 50g, if you do a high variables you are going to have high expenses, and with MA you are doing it with what a 30% reduction already, how is it not cheap?

Simple, based on the general loot distribution of the server is low. MY alchemist, for instance, struggles to maintain alchemist fire at 150 gold a pop with nothing more than the loot aquired from the dungeons. Let alone some one paying 600/800/2000 per potion. There is also a major difference in price from brew potion and elixers i have noticed. AS I stated before, 500 for a potion of cure moderate wounds 250 for the elixer of the same CL. 30% off of anything is also a big deal economically speaking. I jump at 30% off sales for obvious reasons, So yes being able to craft a 2200 gold potion for 1500 is dramatic but still isn't "cheap". Lets compare potions to wands as you seem to want to do: to craft 50 of these potions would be 75k and non-rechargeable. How is this cheap?

Blackman D wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:32 am and there is nothing wrong with that, no one forces anyone to take UMD or use magic... aside from the difficulty of current content

Case and point.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:32 am primary issue probably being potions only stack in 10s which means they take up too much space carrying in bulk -- then you have the issue of weight, a potion is what? 0.1 lbs? which means 10 is 1 lb, so 50 is 5 lbs, may not seem like a lot until you compare 5 lbs for 50 potions to 1 lb for a wand with 50 uses, low str toons are not going to be able to carry a lot of potions, its the same issue healers kit face to low str except they are worse at 1 lb per kit so 10 lbs per stack

As a str 8 mage that carries over 200 vials i can say that this is a non-issue.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:32 am its not just an issue with price which is why changing the price is unlikely to actually help when you consider other factors, you would have to change the weight which is a no, they are already .1 you cant go any lower

Technically you can lower the weight further but again its a non-issue. And obviously price is the primary reason people don't buy player made potions because PEOPLE USE NPC POTIONS AT A FAR HIGHER RATE. particularly in the low-mid level range. I can't recall a time when i wen't on an adventuring party where some one did not have cure moderate wounds potions/ bark skin potions/ mage armor potions and or shield potions. And you wan't to try and convince me that people also don't use heal potions? come on. :/

Blackman D wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:32 am content it was drives UMD usage, you would have to reduce the difficulty back to like 9 years ago when you didnt need UMD or magic to get to high levels, but good luck with that

almost like if there was a substitute to gain most of the benefits of umd without requiring all the skill investment at the cost of weight, supply, and being unable to recharge them. Maybe something like a potion of reasonable costs.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:32 am the amount it cost to brew a potion of say cure critical, the npcs sell the same potion for like a fraction of that cost yes? how is that not too cheap?

I don't know if npc's sell cure critical wounds potions and or who does but if i remember right they sell at something around 230? that is almost 500% the cost of cure moderate wounds for on average 40% more healing. There is no math there. I can't say i have ever seen some one run around with bulks of cure critical wounds potions. either moderate or potions of heal. The point here is that you suggested increasing the price of npc potions, the result is extremely predictable people won't buy potions and even to your own argument there are other reasons why people DON'T want potions so why would increasing the cost be fine or in any way a form of balancing them? And you still have made no argument state why they are cheap other than a blanket statement saying. . . they cheap. The extent some one can argue that point is . . . they aren't.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:32 am and yea i brew without MA... because it costs next to nothing, MA is only a 30% discount its not some game changer especially for costing 5 levels

This is my point exactly, even though I think near about everyone would disagree that brew potion costs next to nothing. The entire reason for this post was posing that MA cost reduction is lowered to that of NPC standards.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:32 am so dont take this as me being completely against doing anything to MA but asking to change prices is dangerous territory to be trending in, especially when the more reasonable option -is- increasing npc prices because they dont follow any rules

when you have two conflicting things and one is going by the rules and the other isnt... you change the one that isnt following the rules and go from there

would it be user friendly? probably not but it would be more fair and thats what you are asking for essentially

if npc prices were made to match the pricing rule you would then also have to add a bit more for charging services (for certain businesses) which would make MA the cheaper choice pending on the MA's service fee

How I see it and this goes to the previous point that we agree'd on regarding difficulty of early levels, is that it makes the server ultimately less new player friendly which will ultimately strangle the server from new blood. Having been from all sorts of different servers over the years this is one thing that with absolute certainty kills a server. So I look at any such suggestions with absolute scrutiny and should only ever be used as a last resort. This is why i think that the inverse solution is a better fit, bring down the costs of MA (easy fix, adjust master brew cost reduction such that at level 5 the costs to make equivalent npc potions match). Potions remain cheap for low-mid level chars, server becomes easier to manage for new players as everyone knows about potions in D&D (or even add a bit about potions from the kid at off of the caravan). MA will be able to sell their brews to players, demand for potions with increase once they hit reasonable costs, requirements on UMD will decrease and give characters other options for high level boons. Wands will still be just as useful for reasons you stated earlier in addition to them being cheaply rechargeable and characters with UMD will ultimately have wands as a cheaper and more convenient option. In my mind its a win-win-win.

potions should not be as inexpensive as wands. Wands have opportunity cost in skill points (22 of them if cross-classing) whereas anyone can slug a potion. Also, comparing the cost to craft a CL30 potion isn't comparable to a wand. If we breakdown the cost apples to apples it is a base cost per charge on a wand of 15 gold vs. the reduced cost of potion crafting for MA of 20 gold it is actually not much more expensive. In fact, for some PC's / Players it SHOULD be worth the benefit to save on UMD and hire MA's to craft them potion stacks. Unfortunately the issue is that if they want 10 (or 50) potions so as not to need to come back constantly then they need to put the order in and the MA needs to go through the (tedious) effort of resting, casting, logging off until rest timer resets, rinse/repeat. That is where it really falls apart. If you could (for example) have a stack of 10 potion bottles and cast one spell to pay the full price and have 10 potions then I think it would be a popular alternative to every PC on the server having UMD.

Of course if you are going to just compare CL30 IMA potions to the CL11 version on wands then yeah, potions are going to be far more pricey.

chad878262 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:46 pm potions should not be as inexpensive as wands. Wands have opportunity cost in skill points (22 of them if cross-classing) whereas anyone can slug a potion. Also, comparing the cost to craft a CL30 potion isn't comparable to a wand. If we breakdown the cost apples to apples it is a base cost per charge on a wand of 15 gold vs. the reduced cost of potion crafting for MA of 20 gold it is actually not much more expensive. In fact, for some PC's / Players it SHOULD be worth the benefit to save on UMD and hire MA's to craft them potion stacks. Unfortunately the issue is that if they want 10 (or 50) potions so as not to need to come back constantly then they need to put the order in and the MA needs to go through the (tedious) effort of resting, casting, logging off until rest timer resets, rinse/repeat. That is where it really falls apart. If you could (for example) have a stack of 10 potion bottles and cast one spell to pay the full price and have 10 potions then I think it would be a popular alternative to every PC on the server having UMD.

Of course if you are going to just compare CL30 IMA potions to the CL11 version on wands then yeah, potions are going to be far more pricey.

From my estimate they are the exact same price at equal CL at 5 levels MA including the full cost of a 3k bone wand. This was based off of shield and maybe it varies with different spells. The exception being 1) less inventory space. 2) less weight 3) less time to make 4) rechargeable. 5) one feat investment out of the bonus feat lists for wizards. at the expense of a small umd requirement. But I agree, i think that bone wands should be cheaper, i don't know why they are so expensive other than having some other form of forced gold sink.

Take that and then look at brew potion by itself. For shield of equal CL it is substantially more expensive with all of those negatives as well. If we want to look at what the cheapest option should be due to UMD restrictions then the answer is obviously scrolls, which are really cheap as they are but i think npcs still sell them for cheaper than it costs to make them.

Its possible that maybe, with the addition of an enchanting system, we can take a look at all item creation feats and scale them back in cost or increase average loot distribution and increases costs of npcs.

well using IMA as the example

on a wand its 10 CL so comes out to 10 x 3 x 750g = 22,500g /50 = 450g

a potion would be 10 x 3 x 50g = 1,500g x50 = 75,000g

so yea in the regard of buying in mass bulk potions are the worse option, however if you cant get your moneys worth out of 10 hrs of +6 AC then you have other issues regardless of which option you pick

but i will agree that yea they are more expensive in that case, but as pointed out they are also free to use

however

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:11 pm Simple, based on the general loot distribution of the server is low.

this is a poor defense because the loot has always sucked and was suppose to have been made better than what it was and people still make money off of it -- it is not that hard to have a loot run cover the expenses of UMD costs, provided you are actually using the duration effectively

like if im gonna hop on my rogue, who is my biggest UMD user who literally has two pages of inventory space full of wands and scrolls, and im only gonna be on for like 15 mins, im not gonna waste 20,000g worth of UMD

the cost of something and your ability to get income are two different issues and only one may be the real problem, and its probably not the cost

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:11 pm As a str 8 mage that carries over 200 vials i can say that this is a non-issue.

a mage who can cast bulls str going from 8 to 12 should not in fact have any issues, you are right

its low str non magic users who have to carry an assortment of gear for rp/combat/loot/grind/???/profit reasons that are not going to have much space weight and inventory wise that have the issue where they need to use more convenient non space and weight consuming items

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:11 pm And you wan't to try and convince me that people also don't use heal potions? come on. :/

that would be silly of course, however in my experience, heal pot chuggers are either pvp advocates or use a small number of heal pots to supplement a larger stock of healers kits, because in combat you will get your 110hp, but out of combat you get your take 20 on the kit where 6 kits is 120 hp and 6 kits are cheaper than 1 heal pot

but again we are talking about those who have the str to pull that off but yet still try to conserve gold on consumables

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:11 pm almost like if there was a substitute to gain most of the benefits of umd without requiring all the skill investment at the cost of weight, supply, and being unable to recharge them. Maybe something like a potion of reasonable costs.

no, because using a potion is still using a magical device its just free of restrictions, so those that will use magic in some way shape or form are still going to go with the better option if available

when i say reduced to the point where you dont need UMD, i mean magic period, there were far more non magic non UMD using builds back in the day than there are now, because way back when, UMD was not needed for the average build to survive -- rogues and fighters were way easier to play

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:11 pm This is my point exactly, even though I think near about everyone would disagree that brew potion costs next to nothing. The entire reason for this post was posing that MA cost reduction is lowered to that of NPC standards.

but thats a bit of an issue here, you want to lower to a standard... that doesnt exist, and to implement a standard -is- a good idea... however those standards are already made - CL x SL x 50g - and it would just so happen to raise prices

will it actually happen? doubtful
will MA bonus be increased? probably doubtful? it is an rp class that not intended on having a strong mechanical benefit

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:11 pm How I see it and this goes to the previous point that we agree'd on regarding difficulty of early levels, is that it makes the server ultimately less new player friendly which will ultimately strangle the server from new blood. Having been from all sorts of different servers over the years this is one thing that with absolute certainty kills a server.

well that depends, if you are referring to the difficulty then yea i agree, it does kill it for those who want to casual play, however those people can still rp regardless of their levels, so not really

if you are referring to the cost of expenses then no because there are plenty of ways to make a decent amount of gold to cover expenses, you simply have to go do it - if you dont wanna go make money then you cant buy nice things (you can steal them tho! #fivefingerdiscounts)

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:59 pm i think that bone wands should be cheaper, i don't know why they are so expensive other than having some other form of forced gold sink.

thats exactly the reason, after they added the destroy chance on recharge people started hording bone wands and selling them at a pretty high price which was an unintentional outcome, so they were added in at a high but market reasonable price to curb the excessively high pricing

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 am this is a poor defense because the loot has always sucked and was suppose to have been made better than what it was and people still make money off of it -- it is not that hard to have a loot run cover the expenses of UMD costs, provided you are actually using the duration effectively

What you said and what i wrote have no connection to each other. Regardless of how long loot has been low as no barring on weather or not the loot is currently low and thus gold income is low and so when we are discussing what is "cheap" or not the only variable is gold income. If average gold income is 10000000000000000 a minute for instance than a potion that costs 2 gold to make is cheap. when you make 2 gold per minute and a potion costs 1000000000000000 a potion is not cheap. And still yet again after three posts you have given no actual argument as to why it is cheap.

It is not hard to have a loot run cover umd expenses. That depends on several variables, build for instance, type of adventuring, where you are going and what you are killing and how, rp variables ect. A rogue is a poor example because, while they have high umd, they do not need it as much as other classes due to built in HIPS and the highest average damage output of any class (except maybe warslinger). But lets assume that is true and we want to purely look at the most basic items for the most general situations: ima, heroism. its about 900 per couple, lets assume that you rest per area and that the average loot per area is around 3k worth. So you are making about 2/3's as much gold. To me, 33% is expensive considering all of the other downsides that comes with potions and elixers specifically.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 am the cost of something and your ability to get income are two different issues and only one may be the real problem, and its probably not the cost

No they are codependant variables. The problem is we can't fix ones ability to gain income near as easily as we can change the costs to reflect low income.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 am a mage who can cast bulls str going from 8 to 12 should not in fact have any issues, you are right

This is an assumption and it is a wrong one, I don't use bulls strength.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 am when i say reduced to the point where you dont need UMD, i mean magic period, there were far more non magic non UMD using builds back in the day than there are now, because way back when, UMD was not needed for the average build to survive -- rogues and fighters were way easier to play

Maybe you are playing the wrong setting then. This is FR, however, and is a medium magic setting. How do non-magic users make up for their lack of magic is a medium magic setting? The big three: Rods, Wands, potions. In every FR game ever created these objects have been plentiful and cheap (by the previous definition of cheap based on the relative loot distribution). Now idk how back in the day you want to go, but if we are talking about beta there where plenty of issues and lack of balance for non magic users. In fact, i would argue that early-mid level gameplay was substantially more difficult, we didn't even have the backpack of the hearty. But what was more common where buff focus wizards and not so much gishes. I think back in the day though people didn't power build gish as much in general.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 am will it actually happen? doubtful
will MA bonus be increased? probably doubtful? it is an rp class that not intended on having a strong mechanical benefit

Keep comments constructive, i expect more from QC.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 am well that depends, if you are referring to the difficulty then yea i agree, it does kill it for those who want to casual play, however those people can still rp regardless of their levels, so not really

This is interesting on the topic of appeal based on RP. This was one of the reasons that I started playing here again to begin with. But the sad fact is, most of the rp is out past mid level range. The way the flow of the sever is designed right now you are forced into a certain amount of grinding to be able to RP widely. I know that the addition of the farmlands campfire has helped some and has moved crowds away from FAI but the majority of the time people still seem to prefer to RP around FAI as it is the center of grinding traffic and is outside of the gates.

The real fact of the matter is, if people can't level or if they can't find ways to augment their character using affordable means then they won't play, it doesn't matter how much RP they get in in the mean time. That is simply the common trend of modern gaming.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 am if you are referring to the cost of expenses then no because there are plenty of ways to make a decent amount of gold to cover expenses, you simply have to go do it - if you dont wanna go make money then you cant buy nice things (you can steal them tho! #fivefingerdiscounts)

This comment missed the point, in early levels you have to spend money to make money. Currently it is -fine- but if we raise the costs by 5x as you suggest it will be -not fine-. So no, you can't simply just "do it" if you get killed by the first couple of mobs you run into.

The costs of the low level potions such as barkskin, MA, or shield potions could be kept as they are then we could raise the prices of the remaining potions sold by NPCs (such as heal) together with another cost raise on the wands as some are notoriously cheap.

That way new players and low level PCs don't take a hit and comparatively the elixirs become more competitive.

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:54 am And still yet again after three posts you have given no actual argument as to why it is cheap.

look at the price of consumables to other items and even wands are cheap

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:54 am That depends on several variables, build for instance, type of adventuring, where you are going and what you are killing and how, rp variables ect.

that was my point yea, if you want to use any type of consumable then you have to know well enough that you have to do something to cover the costs, even other items - if someone cant save up or generate gold then they simply cant buy more expensive things

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:54 am No they are codependant variables. The problem is we can't fix ones ability to gain income near as easily as we can change the costs to reflect low income.

and yet low income is only low if you put a low amount of effort into it, if the servers actual economy was low then no one would have any gold

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:54 am This is an assumption and it is a wrong one, I don't use bulls strength.

no matter, mages still dont exactly need a lot of heavy gear

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:54 am Keep comments constructive, i expect more from QC.

not that this is QC tho i dont see how you think that wasnt constructive given you dont want the npc prices to go up

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:54 am This is FR, however, and is a medium magic setting.

definitely not medium magic when everything basically revolves around needing magical items and such

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:54 am his is interesting on the topic of appeal based on RP. This was one of the reasons that I started playing here again to begin with. But the sad fact is, most of the rp is out past mid level range. The way the flow of the sever is designed right now you are forced into a certain amount of grinding to be able to RP widely. I know that the addition of the farmlands campfire has helped some and has moved crowds away from FAI but the majority of the time people still seem to prefer to RP around FAI as it is the center of grinding traffic and is outside of the gates.

The real fact of the matter is, if people can't level or if they can't find ways to augment their character using affordable means then they won't play, it doesn't matter how much RP they get in in the mean time. That is simply the common trend of modern gaming.

well, you are not wrong

Zethrenx99 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:54 am This comment missed the point, in early levels you have to spend money to make money. Currently it is -fine- but if we raise the costs by 5x as you suggest it will be -not fine-. So no, you can't simply just "do it" if you get killed by the first couple of mobs you run into

there are quests for lowbies that require killing nothing and there are beginners areas tho ive never been in them

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:42 pm look at the price of consumables to other items and even wands are cheap

Do you have any examples or illustrations to your point? Here is one: Bark skin, 90 each or so, +3 natural armor. +3 NA amulet, 2k maybe 3k. After 30 bark skin potions you could buy a permanent natural armor item. I feel that with the low economy that seems reasonable to me. Now lets raise the price to standard. 300 gold for a barkskin potion. After less than 10 potions you could have bought a permanent NA item. So those potions are cheap?

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:42 pm and yet low income is only low if you put a low amount of effort into it, if the servers actual economy was low then no one would have any gold

Incorrect as stated several times, at low-mid level the amount of effort is irrelevant if you can't survive long enough to make it to a chest. Here is yet another example, i have a level 9 healer. The healer has a AB of 7, the only area she will not die in are the bandit caves (cr 3 and well under her level) or first level of the ruins if I take my time (cr 5ish area and under the level for the character). The extent of me "trying" without potions to make money is to do nothing but grind out areas of lower level than my character should be, which is against the rules? Moreover, the amount of money you make now increases with your level in that you gain access to more and more area's to loot out. This fact alone means that income is a factor of level and not effort alone. This is why your second point is invalid, infact it is quite easy for my level 25 druid to go around and make the big bucks if i want to without needing any potions, full +4 items plus a strong build. Simply put, we could look at the economy in a class system based on level and build where the higher your level and stronger your build the more money you make yet the less money you need. (And even still no one has ever bought RP potions that would certainly come in handy for any one with loads of money to spend. That is, potions of sending or comprehend language. But they are in fact so expensive that even the super rich among our high levels don't bother. Somewhere around 1500 to make a sending potion, 200 for comprehend language that last 3 rounds...Cheap?)

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:42 pm no matter, mages still dont exactly need a lot of heavy gear

Neither does any non-str based character. What's your point?

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:42 pm not that this is QC tho i dont see how you think that wasnt constructive given you dont want the npc prices to go up

You are labled QC. Stating that something -will never happen so it doesn't matter- to paraphrase is not constructive.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:42 pm definitely not medium magic when everything basically revolves around needing magical items and such

In fact that is medium magic, high magic would involve +6 to +10 items with monster spell dc's upwards of 50's. And all those items would be required WITH a proper party to adventure. That is, you would still need buffs ontop of those item bonuses. In a medium magic setting you can get away with one or the other but not neither.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:42 pm there are quests for lowbies that require killing nothing and there are beginners areas tho ive never been in them

From my latest run as a low level i gained around 700 exp without gold reward for non-combat based quests and then died when i tried to get the merchants stolen goods back. So not enough to level you up unless I am missing some thing, which is possible. But that still is at best one levels worth of non-combat quests which still doesn't put you in a good enough position to handle bandits or the grave yard solo without potions (Save for some builds, groups or luck).